This was discussed previously here.
The problems were a mix of old and later elements plus the fact Betsy & Warren did not know they were Hellfire Club members in X2 29.
The conclusion was that the flashback on pages 12-15 did not make sense.
However, 1) the issue has another flashback on page 1 that is included.
2) the first meeting of Warren and Elizabeth at the Hellfire Club was mentioned in the previous issue (UXFOR 16) "[Warren] has felt deeply bonded to you since the first time you met. A fateful evening in the Hellfire Club. You were with your idiot bull of a brother."
This core version is more defensible than the one with anachronistic details.
On reading the story a simple solution presented itself.
In the story Betsy is mind-controlled and X-Force need to free her. On page 15 a telepath, AoA Jean Grey, appears in the flashback stating "You are reliving a memory that brings you happiness." This confirms the existence of the memory but also that it is being relived from the present (rather than an accurate flashback), explaining the presence of anachronistic details. Quite likely, the attempt of the telepath to break Betsy out of her memory modified the core memory mentioned in the previous issue and made her bring up later elements and color her recall with the anachronistic details.
Flashback analysis:
Page 12: Sebastian Shaw "What happened to your father was a terrible crime. If you ever needed the responsible parties repaid."
Warren "X-Men don't kill."
Shaw "Yes, right, "X-Men," you study with Charles Xavier. We have mutual friends..."
Brian and Betsy appear in their later looks, speaking with Pierce. Betsy uses telepathy with Warren.
Page 13 "You are the second child of James Braddock who invented artificial intelligence, only to be killed by it. Your twin brother, Brian, is Captain Britain."
AoA Jean Grey appears in the background, listening to the conversation.
Page 14. Brian and Betsy leave the party.
Page 15 Jean Grey addresses Betsy in her memory to pull her out of her subjection. Obviously by this point this is not a flashback anymore but a full telepathic intervention.
Shaw does not say here the X-Men are the mutual friends. He's probably just hinting to Warren that he too is a mutant or pretending to know Xavier. (Maybe he does, cf X-Men: Legacy (1st series) #211-214. Shaw also got the mansion bugged since X 110, gathering private information on the X-Men that he can use to his advantage such as claiming acquaintances he does not have.)
We can see three stages in the attempt to free Betsy's mind lost in that past memory: 1) Betsy appears in her purple-haired 80s look (12:2) due to Jean Grey's attempt to connect her past self to her present self; 2) Jean Grey appears as a background character (13:5); 3) she addresses Betsy within the flashback on the last page (15), effectively breaking the mind-control. Any other detail deemed to be anachronistic can be assigned to this freeing process.
Marvel chronology:
1970 deaths of Warren's father (KZ 2/2) then of his mother (XMHY 15). Warren becomes less protective of his secret identity.
1975 Angel leaves X-Men and joins Champions. Publicly comes out. (X-Men 94, Giant-Size Champions 1)
1976, Oct, Brian Braddock becomes Captain Britain. (Captain Britain 1) His parents died shortly before.
1976, Dec, first appearance of Betsy. She already has telepathic powers. (Captain Britain 8)
1977 Betsy modeling, last appearance before Daredevils 3 (SUPSM & CB 243/2, 28 Sep 1977)
1983 Brian & Betsy (with purple hair) meet, looking very different from what they used to in the weekly Captain Britain series. She reveals she is a telepath (Daredevils 3, Mar 1983)
1994 Warren & Betsy find out they're both Hellfire members (X2 29, Feb 1994).
2002 In flashback, Betsy is trained by STRIKE and sent to infiltrate the Hellfire Club (XX 3, Sep 2001)
2012 In flashback, Warren & Betsy first meet at the Hellfire Club (UXFOR 17, Jan 2012)
Reconciling all this
At no point in the UXFOR 17 flashback does Betsy reveal she is a telepath to Brian, so this can take place before The Daredevils 3. At this point she is already a model, and while a model she was recruited by STRIKE, who taught her to control her powers and told her to inflitrate the Hellfire Club (cf XX 3 below).
The later looks of the Braddocks need to be dismissed. They can been assigned to the telepathic influence of Jean Grey trying to pull Betsy to present time. Even without this explanation, telepathic images of self and others often vary from reality and can be modified by present perceptions.
Warren knowing Brian is Captain Britain can be due to either Betsy non-verbally broadcasting the information to him right there (in The Daredevils 4 she casually reveals her brother's identity to fellow agent Tom Lennox) or, again, later knowledge making its way into the memory due to Jean Grey's intervention. In the latter case, Brian might not have been Captain Britain yet at the time of the original flashback. This flashback could therefore take place anytime between 1970 and 1979, depending on which elements we want to discard, the core flashback being just the sentence from UXFOR 16.
The knowledge of the death of James Braddock by artificial intelligence could simply be public knowledge due to Braddock Manor's housemaid Emma Collins incriminating the Mastermind computer after Captain Britain 15 and need not require private confidences from Betsy or Brian. In The Daredevils 2, she appears under the control of the computer but it does not say specifically MM has controlled her since CB 15. In CB 15 Emma was taken by the police. If she implicated the computer at the time, was believed right away or after a delay, returned there to fall under MM's control before the manor was seemingly destroyed, that works. All it takes is times when the control could have abated. Note Collins and Mastermind are missing DDS 2 in their listings.
Trying to retain most elements such as the deaths of the Braddocks, Shaw as leader of the Hellfire Club, Warren coming out as a mutant and Brian as Captain Britain, a good place could be right after MTU 66. (Since I am not familiar with Marvel UK comics, I picked an issue where Brian is in New York but earlier would be perfectly fine if someone has a better idea.) The visit to the Hellfire Club could even be part of Brian's repeated partying that Peter Parker complained about in X-CAL 53-FB.
Why does Shaw mention the murder of Warren's father? It's simply the first time Warren set foot inside the club since the death and Shaw is appealing to darker motives to corrupt Warren. Maybe it is a topical issue because the trial is underway, or just ended with a light sentence or one of the culprits recently asked for parole.
Why does Warren refer to the X-Men rather than his current Champions team? Because Shaw seems to refer to a mutant hate crime and Warren thinks it appropriate to bring up the values forwarded by his former and more famous East Coast team rather than his newer and lesser known West Coast group. And Shaw insists about the X-Men to hint at a mutant connection between them.
Why do Warren & Betsy not know they're Hellfire Club members in X2 29? My best suggestion is Betsy just as casually erased the encounter along with the knowledge of her brother's secret identity as she had broadcast it. I do not have an example of her erasing it as I have for her broadcasting it (in The Daredevils 4) but there may be events between 1977 & 1994, such as amnesias or mind controls, which could help explain this.
Of course, one could place the flashback after the Champions disband (after PPSSM 18 [May 1978] or IH@7 [Dec 78]). That would reduce the "several years" that Brian and Betsy had not seen each other. (They don't recognize each other at first in Daredevils 3 not having met since SUPSM&CB 243/2). Before the gathering of the Champions might be possible but one would have to envisage Captain Britain's origin story took place more than one year before it was published (1975 instead of 1976). (1975 might also not work for the internal Hellfire Club chronology.)
There are relevant flashbacks in XX 3 on pages 9 & 10 which are missing from the database for Betsy (and Shaw). It is included for Tessa as (8:4 - 9), it should be (9:4 -10). If Tessa's placement is to be followed, Betsy and Shaw appear in XX3 (9:4 - 10) between X-Men 135 and 151. All flashbacks in XX 3 are wrong by one page (pages 2-3 are a doublespread, a possible explanation for the miscount).
XX 3 (8:1 - 8:3)-FB should be (9:1 - 9:3) or (9:1abc) if it is only about her modeling career.
9:1abc a montage of three pictures of Betsy as supermodel
9:2 training as an agent of STRIKE
9:3 further training or mission for STRIKE
9:4 -10 infiltrating Hellfire Club (Shaw, Gordon Philips, Tessa, Leland)
Given her mastery of telepathy in UXFOR 17-FB, I assume Betsy must have had her STRIKE training already.
Corrections:
To separate it from the second flashback, the first one on page 1, which is already in the database, needs to be changed to UXFOR 17 (1)-FB:
ANGEL III/WARREN KENNETH WORTHINGTON III
BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY
CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS/"SLYM DAYSPRING"
ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE
MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY SUMMERS/"REDD DAYSPRING"
PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER
UXFOR 17-FB ------> UXFOR 17 (1)-FB
For Beast and Storm the flashback on page 22 of the issue takes place before GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB. For Bishop, Psylocke, Rogue, Thunderbird, it takes place after GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB. The X-Men index only acknowledges one XX 3-FB taking place before GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB but there is a flashback on each side:
XX 3 (14:6 - 17)-FB (Psylocke, Rogue, Thunderbird in mansion) > GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB (Storm, Psylocke, Rogue, Thunderbird leave mansion) > XX 3 (22)-FB (Storm, Psylocke, Rogue, Thunderbird, Beast, Bishop, Sage about to leave for Spain).
So Beast and Storm should be aligned with Bishop.
ANGEL III/WARREN KENNETH WORTHINGTON III
IM@ 4
*UXFOR 17 (12-14)-FB add
SVTU 14
BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY
W2 167-FB-BTS
*GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB move to here
*XX 3-FB -------> XX 3 (22)-FB
*GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB move from here
BISHOP, LUCAS | EARTH-1191
GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB
*XX 3-FB ------> XX 3 (22)-FB
XX 1-FB
CAPTAIN BRITAIN/BRIAN BRADDOCK
MTU 66
*UXFOR 17 (12-14)-FB add
XCAL 53-FB
COLLINS, EMMA
CB 15
*DDS 2 add
XCAL 19
BLACK BISHOP II/HARRY LELAND (IMHO should not appear under this title, which is not a codename)
X 135
*XX 3 (9:4 - 10)-FB add
UX 151-BTS
BLACK KING/SEBASTIAN SHAW (IMHO should not appear under this title, which is not a codename)
XU2 1-FB
*UXFOR 17 (12-14)-FB add
UX@2 2-FB
...
X 135
*XX 3 (9:4 - 10)-FB add
UX 151
MASTERMIND III
CB 26-FB
*DDS 2 add
XCAL2 2
PSYLOCKE/ELIZABETH BRADDOCK II
SUPSM&CB 243/2
*XX 3 (8:1 - 8:3)-FB -----> (9:1 - 9:3)-FB modify
*UXFOR 17 (12-14)-FB add
*XX 3 (9:4 - 10)-FB add
DDS 2-BTS
...
X2 109
*XX 3 (13:6 - 16)-FB ------> (14:6 - 17)-FB modify
GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB
*XX 3-FB ------> XX 3 (22)-FB modify
XX 2-FB
ROGUE/ANNA MARIE
W2 176-FB
*XX 3 (13:6 - 16)-FB ------> (14:6 - 17)-FB modify
XU 30/3
...
GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB
*XX 3-FB ------> XX 3 (22)-FB
SM:SC-BTS
SAGE II From Tessa
*XX 3-FB ------> XX 3 (22)-FB
XX 1-FB
STORM/ORORO MUNROE
W:SOC
*GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB move to here
*XX 3-FB -------> XX 3 (22)-FB
XU 30/2
XX 2-FB
*GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB move from here
TESSA
{X 132}
*XX 3 (8:4 - 9)-FB ---> (9:4 - 10)-FB modify
UX 151
THUNDERBIRD III/NEAL SHAARA
X2 109
*XX 3 (13:6 - 16)-FB ------> (14:6 - 17)-FB modify
GAM&BSHP:SOA 1-FB
*XX 3-FB ------> XX 3 (22)-FB
XX 1-FB
WHITE BISHOP/DONALD PIERCE (IMHO should not appear under this very rarely used title, especially since he was deprived of it early on)
X:HC 4-FB
*UXFOR 17 (12-14)-FB add
UX@2 2-FB
Revised multiple times to refine the arguments, to include XX 3, to take into account the remarks of dimadick and Michael below and to suggest corrections to characters' listings.
Sixth edit on Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:19 pm.
Uncanny X-Force 17 second flashback
Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb
Uncanny X-Force 17 second flashback
Last edited by Leoparis on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Re: Uncanny X-Force 17 second flashback
It is not entirely out of the question.:Leoparis wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 6:52 pm Flashback analysis:
Page 12: Sebastian Shaw "What happened to your father was a terrible crime. If you ever needed the responsible parties repaid."
Warren "X-Men don't kill."
Shaw "Yes, right, "X-Men," you study with Charles Xavier. We have mutual friends..."
Brian and Betsy appear in their later looks, speaking with Pierce. Betsy uses telepathy with Warren.
Page 13 "You are the second child of James Braddock who invented artificial intelligence, only to be killed by it. Your twin brother, Brian, is Captain Britain."
AoA Jean Grey appears in the background, listening to the conversation
Page 14. Brian and Betsy leave the party.
Page 15 Jean Grey addresses Betsy in her memory to pull her out of her subjection. Obviously this is not a flashback anymore.
Shaw does not say here the X-Men are the mutual friends. He's probably just hinting to Warren that he too is a mutant or pretending to know Xavier.
*According to the story arc in X-Men: Legacy (1st series) #211-214, both Brian Xavier and Jacob Shaw worked under Mr. Sinister in the Alamogordo research facility. Sinister had access to their underage sons Charles Xavier and Sebastian Shaw, and experimented on the kids. The experiment left a sample of Sinister's own DNA within the bodies of Charles and Sebastian, to be activated at a later point. (The same experiment also affected two other kids, Carter Ryking and Cain Marko).
*In flashback scenes in X-Treme X-Men (1st series) #44 and Uncanny X-Men (1st series) #454, Sebastian is acquainted with Tessa in Afghaniustan and hires her. He may or may not have known that she previously worked for Charles Xavier.
*In X-Men (1st series) #110, Sebastian's agent Warhawk plants a bug on Cerebro that would automatically the Hellfire Club on any activity it detected. Following this point, Sebastian had the X-Men under surveillance.
The two have had parallel lives.
Marvel chronology:
The deaths of Sir James Braddock and his wife Elizabeth are depicted in a flashback in Captain Britain vol. 1 14 (January 12, 1977). They were electocuted to death by the Mastermind computer.
The flashback specifically preceeded Mastermind's debut story in #12 (December 29, 1976), and the previous storyline where Doctor Synne served as its pawn. Synne debuted in #8 (December 1, 1976). I am not certain how long before #1 the deaths should be placed.
Re: Uncanny X-Force 17 second flashback
I think part of the issue is that Betsy wasn't clearly a telepath before Daredevils. She sees visions of demons in Captain Britain 8 but the dialogue suggests that was Mastermind''s doing. (The computer, not the mutant.) And she has a prophetic vision in Captain Britain 34. In fact, Brian wonders how Betsy knew that he was in the manor or that the manor was still standing in Daredevils 3 and then Betsy feels the need to explain to Brian that she's a telepath and that STRIKE taught her to control her powers. The implication seems to be that Daredevils 3 is the first time Brian realized that Betsy was a telepath (as opposed to some other sort of superhuman.)Leoparis wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 6:52 pm This was discussed previously here.
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... f=2&t=6118
The problems were a mix of old and later elements plus the fact Betsy & Warren did niot know they were Hellfire Club members in X 29.
The conclusion was that the flashback on pages 12-15 did not make sense.
However, 1) the issue has another flashback on page 1 that is included.
2) the first meeting of Warren and Elizabeth at the Hellfire Club was mentioned in the previous issue (UXFOR 16) "[Warren] has felt deeply bonded to you since the first time you met. A fateful evening in the Hellfire Club. You were with your idiot bull of a brother."
This core version is more defensible than the one with anachronistic details.
On reading the story a simple solution presented itself.
In the story Betsy is mind-controlled and X-Force need to free her. On page 15 a telepath, AoA Jean Grey, appears in the flashback stating "You are reliving a memory that brings you happiness." Let us say the attempt of the telepath to break Betsy out of her memory modified the core memory mentioned in the previous issue and made her bring up later elements and color her recall with anachronistic details.
Flashback analysis:
Page 12: Sebastian Shaw "What happened to your father was a terrible crime. If you ever needed the responsible parties repaid."
Warren "X-Men don't kill."
Shaw "Yes, right, "X-Men," you study with Charles Xavier. We have mutual friends..."
Brian and Betsy appear in their later looks, speaking with Pierce. Betsy uses telepathy with Warren.
Page 13 "You are the second child of James Braddock who invented artificial intelligence, only to be killed by it. Your twin brother, Brian, is Captain Britain."
AoA Jean Grey appears in the background, listening to the conversation
Page 14. Brian and Betsy leave the party.
Page 15 Jean Grey addresses Betsy in her memory to pull her out of her subjection. Obviously this is not a flashback anymore.
Shaw does not say here the X-Men are the mutual friends. He's probably just hinting to Warren that he too is a mutant or pretending to know Xavier.
We can see three stages in the attempt to free Betsy's mind lost in that past memory: 1) Betsy appears in her modern look (purple hair, Asian body) due to Jean Gre's attempt to connect her past self to her present self; 2) Jean Grey appears as a background character; 3) she addresses Betsy within the flashback on the last page (15), effectively breaking the mind-control. Any other detail deemed to be anachronistic can be assigned to this freeing process.
Marvel chronology:
1970 deaths of Warren's father (KZ 2/2) then of his mother (XMHY 15). Warren becomes less protective of his secret identity.
1975 Angel leaves X-Men and joins Champions. Publicly comes out. (X-Men 94, Giant-Size Champions 1)
1976, Oct, Brian Braddock becomes Captain Britain. (Captain Britain 1) His parents died shortly before.
1976, Dec, first appearance of Betsy. She already has telepathic powers. (Captain Britain 8)
1977 Betsy modeling, last appearance before Da\redevils 3 (SUPSM & CB 243/2, 28 Sep 1977)
1983 Brian & Betsy (with purple hair) meet, looking very different from what they used to in the weekly Captain Britain series. (Daredevils 3, Mar 1983)
1994 Warren & Betsy find out they're both Hellfire members (X2 29, Feb 1994).
I think the problem with that is that the dialogue in Daredevils 2 suggests that Emma was under the control of Mastermind from Captain Britain 15 to Daredevils 2.
I think that can be explained was a side effect of Betsy and Warren being mind controlled thirty thousand times.Leoparis wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 6:52 pm Trying to retain most elements such as the deaths of the Braddocks, Shaw as leader of the Hellfire Club, Warren coming out and Brian as Captain Britain, a good place could be right after MTU 66. (Since I am not familiar with Marvel UK comics, I picked an issue where Brian is in New York but earlier would be perfectly fine if someone has a better idea.)
Why does Shaw mention the murder of Warren's father? It's simply the first time Warren set foot inside the club since the death and Shaw is appealing to darker motives to corrupt Warren. Maybe it is a topical issue because the trial is underway, or just ended with a light sentence or one of the culprits recently asked for parole.
Why does Warren refer to the X-Men rather than his current Champions team? Because Shaw seems to refer to a mutant hate crime and Warren thinks it appropriate to bring up the values forwarded by his former more famous East Coast team rather than his newer West Coast group. And Shaw insists about the X-Men to hint at a mutant connection between them.
Why do Warren & Betsy not know they're Hellfire Club members in X2 29? My best suggestion is Betsy just as casually erased the encounter along with the knowledge of her brother's secret identity as she had broadcast it. I do not have an example of her erasing it as I have for her broadcasting it (in The Daredevils 4).
He's under White Bishop.
I agree with your core point- the core memory in X-Force 16 works as long as you explain away those lines of dialogue in X-Men 29. And any anachronistic details can be explained away by AOA Jean's influence.