Fantastic Four 4 (2013) flashbacks

[Col_Fury]

Nope. She was the girl he left behind when he went into the service, according to FF 11, and he thought about her all the time. And of course, that's the opposite of what FF 291, 543, FF4 4, BFF:STORMS 2-FB etc. says. This FF 11 stuff is only dialogue, though, while all the others are scenes or remembrances.

In theory, maybe Reed's service years goes college -> meets Sue -> wartime -> Alyssa Moy. Oops, that doesn't work, otherwise Reed's a great big cheating jerk. As it stands, Reed has to have dated Allyssa Moy before he meets Sue.

I can see squinting a little bit at the History book; Waid did give the artist some leeway in designing the page layouts after all. It's possible Galactus got the order of some things a little off as you say. If we wanted to wait to move the wartime stuff until Kurt Busiek does some Sin-Cong story that makes wartime after college impossible, I'm cool with that. I'll go back and make clear which moves I suggested are wartime ones (but we still need to move the definitely WWII stuff out).

[StrayLamb]

Some writers seem to be more interested in leaving their mark, rather than taking heed of what's gone before, and seem to forget they're writing in a shared universe. No names mentioned, but we all know who they are. Pet peev.

I thought that over all, Mark Waid & Javier Rodriguez did a really good job on History of the Marvel Universe. It's a big subject to tackle, and it made for an enjoyable read.

[Col_Fury]

I can tell you Mark Waid is one of the writers that cares about continuity. I'd say he's up there with Kurt Busiek, Roger Stern and Roy Thomas. A lot of research when into the History project (check out the credits and you'll see a few familiar names in there under "Research Team"). Sometimes hiccups happen, it is what it is. But like you said, we have some wiggle room for any hiccups in History; Galactus is old and flubbed a thing or two.

And hey! Why did John Byrne change the way Reed met Sue?

[Leoparis]

FF 543, page 10, says two meetings so we cannot turn them into one.

Sue, "13 years old, staying with my aunt Jewel over the summer. And you [Reed] was her tenant, a 20-year old college man."

Sue says, "I was just a child but I already knew." Reed, "And when we met again years later, I knew too." Sue, "I was a woman by then..."

Since both Reed and Sue agree on this account, this cannot be assigned to Psycho-Man's brainwashing of Sue. The "twelve years" and childish look in FF 291 can still be Psycho-Man's influence.

Note: In FF3 55, Reed and Sue have dinner. Reed says, "To 256 marvelous months since I first laid eyes on you." That's 21 years and 4 months. Supposing Sue is about 33 years old in that issue she was indeed 12 when she first met Reed.

[zilch]

Maybe Reed and Ben were ROTC (on scholarship) and activated during college? Carol Danvers was probably also ROTC for the Air Force to help pay for college. Ben and Carol were working class backround, and a lot of kids use it to pay for college. Maybe Reed was cut off from his father's funds after he disappeared (and did he just "disappear" or was just assumed dead??)?

Possibly Reed and Ben's military careers took place during their college years??

-z

[Leoparis]

I figured out Sue Storm's early chronology.

Current INVISIBLE GIRL/SUE STORM RICHARDS listing notes:
FF 32-FB kids
FF 520-FB Sue around graduation
FF4 4 (1)-FB college student, meets Reed for the 2nd time
FF 291-FB 12 yr -old
FF 543 (10:4)-FB 13 yr old, moves in Aunt Jewel
FF4 4 (7)-FB Reed moves in Aunt Mary
BFF:STORMS 2-FB schoolgirl crush, one-way attraction
FF4 4 (10)-FB first date
FF4 4-FB-FB on a date photo
FF4 4 (17)-FB moves out
BFF:STORMS 1 Johnny's fifteen, Sue ESU student, not seen Reed since schoolgirl
BFF:STORMS 2
BFF:STORMS 3
FF:ADM-FB Sue moves into her first apartment
FFWED Reed wearing MIT t-shirt
FF:FF 5-FB photo Reed with grey hair
FF 271-FB
M/:LG 12
FF6 5/2 (3:2 - 6)-FB
FF6 5/2 (7:1:1 - 7:1:3)-FB
{FF 1 (9:1 - 9:4)-FB}

There are three flashbacks stating she had a crush on Richards when she was a schoolgirl and one of those, FF 543, makes it crystal clear they met twice, once when she was a schoolgirl and the other when she was in college. FF 557 confirms it, "A ringside view of the first time we laid eyes one on another as adults."

Sue, "I was just a child but I already knew."
Reed, "And when we met again years later, I knew too."

So no reason to ignore them, merge them or move the first one to the time she was a college student. FF 291 says she was twelve, FF 543 says thirteen. Since FF 291 can be influenced by Psycho-Man making her feel younger and younger, we can keep thirteen.

FF 32-FB describes her mother dying and her father's fall from grace and going to prison.

FF 520 shows Sue saying that now she and Johnny have to live on their own. She's around graduation time (must be high school graduation).

In BFF:Storms Johnny is said to be fifteen (but he could have lied to the sixteen year-old girl he's trying to go out with--SECINV:FF 2 flashback says he goes for older girls). Sue can't forget the student she met as a schoolgirl whom she has not seen since.

FF4 4, as a college student she meets assistant professor Richards, who moves in in her Aunt Mary's house but has to move out because Sue is too much of a distraction.

In FF:ADM Sue moves in her own apartment.

That Sue met Reed twice years apart is confirmed three times: in FF 543 & 557 as mentioned and earlier in FF3 55 (Jul 2002), where Reed and Sue have dinner. Reed says, "To 256 marvelous months since I first laid eyes on you." That's 21 years and 4 months. If Sue is about 34 years old she was 13 when she first met Reed. Sue says she's a thirty-something in the Marvel Knights: Four series (2004-2006). This timeline is consistent with Sue being 20 at the time of their space flight and with thirteen years having gone by for Ben in the TG2 series.

Placing FF 32 in relation to the schoolgirl crush is tricky. The FF 32 flashback spans years but Johnny and Sue only appear in the first panel. The schoolgirl crush happens while they stay at their aunt's for the summer. It's impossible to say which one comes first, but placing FF 32-FB before FF 520-FB where Sue says to Johnny they have to live on their own provides a smooth narrative transition.

Reed's military service would occur between FFWED and FF:FF 5-FB and could be the explanation for Reed's sudden grey hair.

Suggested corrected timeline:
INVISIBLE GIRL/SUE STORM RICHARDS
FF 291-FB 12-yr old
FF 543 (10:4)-FB 13-yr old
BFF:STORMS 2-FB schoolgirl crush, one-way attraction
FF 32-FB
FF 520-FB Sue around graduation
BFF:STORMS 1 Johnny's fifteen
BFF:STORMS 2
BFF:STORMS 3
FF4 4 (1)-FB college student, Reed takes a room
*FF 557-FB bump into each other ADD HERE
FF4 4 (7)-FB Reed moves in Aunt Mary's, hands touch
FF4 4 (10)-FB first date
FF4 4-FB-FB on a date photo
FF4 4 (17)-FB Reed moves out
FF:ADM-FB Sue moves into her first apartment
FFWED Reed wearing MIT t-shirt
[Reed on front]
FF:FF 5-FB photo Reed with grey hair
FF 271-FB
M/:LG 12
FF6 5/2 (3:2 - 6)-FB
FF6 5/2 (7:1:1 - 7:1:3)-FB
{FF 1 (9:1 - 9:4)-FB}

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
*SECINV:FF 2 (1:1 - 1:3)-FB ADD HERE
FF 32-FB
FF 520 (10 - 11)-FB
*FF4 4-FB-BTS MOVE FROM HERE
*SECINV:FF 2 (1:4 - 1:5)-FB ADD HERE
BFF:STORMS 1
BFF:STORMS 2
BFF:STORMS 3
*FF4 4-FB-BTS MOVE HERE
FF 233-FB
HT2 1 (1 - 7)
FF6 5/2 (3:2 - 6)-FB

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
FF 572-FB
**FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1) move from here
FF 416/2 (1 - 2:1)
...
FF3 5-FB
FF SPEC-FB
M/:LG 11
FF3 18-FB
BFF:REED 1-FB
BFF:REED 2-FB
BFF:REED 3-FB
FF 555 (1 - 2)-FB
FF 513/2
**FF4 4 (1)-FB MOVE FROM HERE
FF 291-FB
FF 543 (10:4)-FB
**BFF:STORMS 2-FB MOVE HERE
*FF4 4 (1)-FB MOVE HERE
*FF 557-FB bump into each other ADD HERE
FF4 4 (7)-FB
**BFF:STORMS 2-FB MOVE FROM HERE
FF4 4 (10)-FB
FF4 4-FB-FB
FF4 4 (17)-FB
FF:ADM-FB
FFWED
**FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1) move here
**[THEMARVELS 3] add

THING II/MAJ. BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
BDOOM 2-FB
M/:LG 11 college, doctorate
*FF 543 (10:4)-FB move here
*FF4 4-FB move here
*FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1)-FB move here
*[THEMARVELS 3] add
W2 -1
BFF:BGRIMM&L 1
BFF:BGRIMM&L 2
BFF:BGRIMM&L 3
*FF 543 (10:4)-FB move from here
*FF4 4-FB move from here
TG2 1 (1:3)-FB