Chronology: Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers

[robfj]

I've been looking into suggested dates for things and I reckon this section covers more than 7 months early November to early June.

The simplest extension is to note that the chronology in the back of #1 of the 1987 Avengers Index says that Av#1 occurs in September at the start of Peter Parker and Johnny Storm's senior year (12th Grade) in High School.

But I think the beginning of the range has to be pushed further back because #1 of the 1985 Amazing Spider-Man Index quotes ASM#240 as saying that PP was bitten by the spider in his sophomore (10th Grade) year. So the whole thing must be more than a year long.

Currently you identify some significant dates:-
ASM: Parallel Lives (14:3-20) says Uncle Ben was killed in Thanksgiving Break (late Nov).
ASM3#1.2(7-10)~ASM#2/1 occur during Spring Break.
PPSM An 2001 is the start of Summer Break.

These seem to indicate all this happens in PP's junior (11th Grade) year.
But if the radioactive spider bite happened in the sophomore year then it would have to be before the Summer Break because it was in school-time. So there are long months between the 2 parts of Spidey's origin.

However there is something else which figures into this. The comments on FF#9 in #1 of the 1985 Fantastic Four Index point out that the FF's trip to Hollywood to make a movie can't have happened in Johnny Storm's school-time. Indeed it takes so long that it must be in a Summer Break. But this issue occurs before ASM#1/2~FF An#1/2, which in turn is before ASN#2/1's Spring Break. So this must be the Summer of the previous year!

Suddenly we can have
Sophomore Year:-
ASM: Parallel Lives(3-7) PP gets bitten in Autumn.
ASM: Parallel Lives (14:3-20) Uncle Ben is killed in Thanksgiving Break (late Nov).
FF#9 in Summer Break.
Junior Year:-
ASM3#1.2(7-10)~ASM#2/1 occur during Spring Break.
PPSM An 2001 is the start of Summer Break.
Senior Year:-
Av#1

That's 2 years plus some of FF#1 earlier.

I didn't throw in earlier the bit about ASMPL(3-7) saying PP was bitten in Autumn because there may be a problem with that section related to his age and birthday.

The age ranges for the High School years are:-
Senior 17-18
Junior 16-17
Sophomore 15-16
Freshman 14-15
Ie you should normally be already 15 to enter the Sophomore year. But ASMPL(3-4) says he's 14 when Mary Jane 1st sees him sweeping Autumn leaves, which should already be in the new school year. So he should be just starting his Freshman year.

1 solution is to say that the Autumn in ASMPL(3-4) isn't the same year as the Thanksgiving Break in ASMPL(14-20). MJ just says (3-4) was her 1st sight of PP, and doesn't actually *say* that seeing him as Spider-Man on p18 was the same year. This would mean that he would be 15 in his sophomore year then, and his spider-bite could be anytime before that. But we'd still want to keep the bite and Uncle Ben's death fairly close together, so it could happen earlier in that semester.

The other solution requires investigating PP's birthday. I don't believe it's ever been pinned down in the comics. But the Marvel Fandom Wiki quotes ASM v4 #1 as saying PP is a Libra which would put his birthday between Sep 23 and Oct 22. So if he becomes a Freshman when he's 14 then he quickly becomes 15, and he's 1 of the oldest in the class.

But PP is a very bright pupil, and in such cases I believe they often let the student start High School while he's still 13 if his birthday will be soon. Thus MJ could see him in early Autumn when he's 14 and still be in his Sophomore year. This also fits better with his status with the other students. Not only is he a geek but he'd be possibly the youngest in the class. And there could be resentment about him being allowed in a year early.

I prefer this 2nd option.



Hidden away in the same part of ASMPL there's also a question over MJ's age and birthday. In (3-4) she says she's 13 (while PP is 14). But then in (10-12) she says it's 'the same Fall' and she's 14 and a Freshman (in a school in Philly). Now I don't think MJ is an outstanding enough pupil to have been given a special dispensation to start High School early.

So as an ignorant foreigner I'm left with 2 questions:-
Do leaves start falling early enough in Forest Hills to allow MJ to have her 14th birthday between (3-4) and starting High School?
Or are all pupils who are very nearly 14 allowed to start anyway, especially in the New York area? If so option 2 works for PP *without* using his geek power.



Before leaving I'll just mention TTA#46 (the AM&W story with the Cyclops) which you list as being in Spring. I've looked that issue over and I can't find anything that says Spring. But it's irrelevant because it fits your calendar anyway.

(And looking over a timeline I created for early Marvel decades ago I note that I annotated Strange Tales An#2 as in a Summer Break, but now I can't figure out where I got that from. But again it's irrelevant because that fits too.)

[StrayLamb]

The simplest extension is to note that the chronology in the back of #1 of the 1987 Avengers Index says that Av#1 occurs in September at the start of Peter Parker and Johnny Storm's senior year (12th Grade) in High School.

But I think the beginning of the range has to be pushed further back because #1 of the 1985 Amazing Spider-Man Index quotes ASM#240 as saying that PP was bitten by the spider in his sophomore (10th Grade) year. So the whole thing must be more than a year long.

Currently you identify some significant dates:-
ASM: Parallel Lives (14:3-20) says Uncle Ben was killed in Thanksgiving Break (late Nov).
ASM3#1.2(7-10)~ASM#2/1 occur during Spring Break.
PPSM An 2001 is the start of Summer Break.

These seem to indicate all this happens in PP's junior (11th Grade) year.
But if the radioactive spider bite happened in the sophomore year then it would have to be before the Summer Break because it was in school-time. So there are long months between the 2 parts of Spidey's origin.

However there is something else which figures into this. The comments on FF#9 in #1 of the 1985 Fantastic Four Index point out that the FF's trip to Hollywood to make a movie can't have happened in Johnny Storm's school-time. Indeed it takes so long that it must be in a Summer Break. But this issue occurs before ASM#1/2~FF An#1/2, which in turn is before ASN#2/1's Spring Break. So this must be the Summer of the previous year!

Suddenly we can have
Sophomore Year:-
ASM: Parallel Lives(3-7) PP gets bitten in Autumn.
ASM: Parallel Lives (14:3-20) Uncle Ben is killed in Thanksgiving Break (late Nov).
FF#9 in Summer Break.
Junior Year:-
ASM3#1.2(7-10)~ASM#2/1 occur during Spring Break.
PPSM An 2001 is the start of Summer Break.
Senior Year:-
Av#1

That's 2 years plus some of FF#1 earlier.

Very insightful as always! I'm not sure how much stock we should place in those old indexes (indices?). The writers strike me as force-fitting comics into their own scheme for a timeline, just as you and i have done in our own personal Marvel timelines. I'm willing to go along with it however, if there's a concensus of opinion supporting this position.

I didn't throw in earlier the bit about ASMPL(3-7) saying PP was bitten in Autumn because there may be a problem with that section related to his age and birthday.

The age ranges for the High School years are:-
Senior 17-18
Junior 16-17
Sophomore 15-16
Freshman 14-15
Ie you should normally be already 15 to enter the Sophomore year. But ASMPL(3-4) says he's 14 when Mary Jane 1st sees him sweeping Autumn leaves, which should already be in the new school year. So he should be just starting his Freshman year.

1 solution is to say that the Autumn in ASMPL(3-4) isn't the same year as the Thanksgiving Break in ASMPL(14-20). MJ just says (3-4) was her 1st sight of PP, and doesn't actually *say* that seeing him as Spider-Man on p18 was the same year. This would mean that he would be 15 in his sophomore year then, and his spider-bite could be anytime before that. But we'd still want to keep the bite and Uncle Ben's death fairly close together, so it could happen earlier in that semester.

The other solution requires investigating PP's birthday. I don't believe it's ever been pinned down in the comics. But the Marvel Fandom Wiki quotes ASM v4 #1 as saying PP is a Libra which would put his birthday between Sep 23 and Oct 22. So if he becomes a Freshman when he's 14 then he quickly becomes 15, and he's 1 of the oldest in the class.

There's contradictory evidence concerning Pete's birthday. Col_Fury recently made mention in a post that he believes Pete's birthday is April 1, but i don't know where that came from. Untold Tales of Spider-Man -1 specifically references Ganesh's birthday, Sept 17th, as occuring during the Parker's mission, and a few days later Mary is said to be a month pregnant. That would make Pete's birthday in May.

But PP is a very bright pupil, and in such cases I believe they often let the student start High School while he's still 13 if his birthday will be soon. Thus MJ could see him in early Autumn when he's 14 and still be in his Sophomore year. This also fits better with his status with the other students. Not only is he a geek but he'd be possibly the youngest in the class. And there could be resentment about him being allowed in a year early.

I prefer this 2nd option.

I've always believed myself that Pete was bumped a year, and was the youngest kid in class, which would have made him an easy target for bullying.

Before leaving I'll just mention TTA#46 (the AM&W story with the Cyclops) which you list as being in Spring. I've looked that issue over and I can't find anything that says Spring. But it's irrelevant because it fits your calendar anyway.

(And looking over a timeline I created for early Marvel decades ago I note that I annotated Strange Tales An#2 as in a Summer Break, but now I can't figure out where I got that from. But again it's irrelevant because that fits too.)

Yeah, that Spring notation for TTA 46 appears to be a leftover from my own personal Marvel timeline, from which this list was originally taken. My original list also has a notation that ST@ 2 is in summer, and is confirmed by the Peter Parker Spectacular Spider-Man 2001 Annual, which is placed immediately before it in Spider-Man's chronology, and starts at the beginning of Summer Break. Looks like we're pretty much on the same page there.

[Col_Fury]

There's contradictory evidence concerning Pete's birthday. Col_Fury recently made mention in a post that he believes Pete's birthday is April 1, but i don't know where that came from. Untold Tales of Spider-Man -1 specifically references Ganesh's birthday, Sept 17th, as occuring during the Parker's mission, and a few days later Mary is said to be a month pregnant. That would make Pete's birthday in May.

Unless Peter was born a month early (I was!), that is.

I can't take credit for the April 1st theory (that goes to Paul Bourcier), but I fully support it. There's also PPSM 33-FB, which establishes Peter and his uncle Ben would always go to the first Mets game of the baseball season (which is usually in late March), which they did the year Ben was killed. And of course, Ben is killed "three days later" (according to PPSM 33). What does that have to do with Paul B.'s theory that Peter's birthday is April 1st? "The old Parker luck," that's what. Paul's theory is that uncle Ben dies, the ultimate bad luck, on Peter's birthday, April Fool's Day.

So, Peter's bitten by the radioactive spider when he's 15, during his Sophomore year of high school. He turns 16 on the day his uncle is killed, and a month or so later (six or seven weeks) the semester ends. He then goes on summer break (seen in PPSM '01) after his Sophomore year is done. In theory.

Also, that would mean Peter only turned 16 during his Sophomore year about two months after I did, so totally within the realm of possibility.

[StrayLamb]

All good theories, for sure, but we can't get away from the fact that we have authentic evidence from the comics themselves that Pete was born in May (or April if premature), and late September to October, and that Ben was killed in early April and just after Thanksgiving.

I gotta say, i do like the Thanksgiving date given in Parallel Lives. It seems to leave just the right amout of time for the events to unfold. The actual date of Thanksgiving isn't given in that GN, but i believe it to be the evening when Ben and Pete are talking together on the verandah on page 14.

I think that Col_Fury's theory doesn't leave enough room between Ben's death and that Summer Break, and that robfj's theory stretches it out too far. Ergo, i like my theory better than yours!

[zilch]

In Missouri, we consider age in relation to the September* start date of school. You should be 14 before September to be allowed into high school (freshman year), graduating at age 18. An earlier start date, age wize, would only be allowed for academically advanced students.

* Due to expanding the school year, most Missouri schools start mid-August, but we are moving back to the post-Labor Day start date to facillitate family vacation and such.

-z

[wolframbane]

There's contradictory evidence concerning Pete's birthday. Col_Fury recently made mention in a post that he believes Pete's birthday is April 1, but i don't know where that came from. Untold Tales of Spider-Man -1 specifically references Ganesh's birthday, Sept 17th, as occuring during the Parker's mission, and a few days later Mary is said to be a month pregnant. That would make Pete's birthday in May.

For the reference to Ganesh's birthday, also called Ganesh Jayanti, it is a holiday that occurs January or February, and eight months later would place Peter's birthday in September or October. There is another holiday, Ganesh Chaturthi, celebrating the arrival of Lord Ganesha to earth, which occurs in August or September, which erroneously places Peter's birthdate around April.

At least for my current estimate, perhaps Peter was bitten by the Spider and subsequently became a celebrity during the school year by around September or October at age 15 (per Civil War #2, Parallel Lives, etc), then turned 16 on his birthday, a few weeks later in late November Thanksgiving (Parallel Lives) his Uncle Ben was shot and he confronted the Burglar at the age of 16 (ASM 400/2). And then possibly graduated at age 17 (conjecture, but he was smart and got a scholarship per ASM 28).

[Midnighter]

According to Marvels Snapshot: X-Men, Scott Summers is still in the orphanage at the time of Fantastic Four 4 and would not be recruited by Xavier at least until after the birth of Thor and Iron Man, as well as after the adventure of the Fantastic Four on Planet X (FF 7).

This, however, contradicts what is shown on Marvel 75th Anniversary Special, when Cyclops, Iceman and Beast appear at the X-Mansion in a sequence that should be contemporary with Richards and family's space flight.

[Leoparis]

The 75th anniversary special has too many problems of its own. It's easier to consider it as Ben Urich's reconstruction of events rather than solid evidence. (Reminder: the order of induction is Scott, Bobby, Warren, Hank, Jean)

The conceit of the story is very similar to Marvel Saga 1. There are numerous problems with the idea, in particular with Nick Fury, Dr Strange, Iron Fist and even with Bruce Banner. Since these appearances are connected to a text piece by Ben Urich and his research is shown on the top panel of the last page, I'm going to say that those appearances reflect what he thinks these characters were doing on that day rather than what actually happened.

...
Scott, Bobby and Hank? are already recruited by Xavier. Hank is not named and the bulky figure behind Bobby could presumably be someone else. Only Scott and Bobby are mentioned as X-Men. It's odd that Bobby gets introduced to the estate if Hank is also there. Possibly another previously unrevealed student was recruited between Scott and Bobby but I doubt a writer will ever pick up that discrepancy. "Hank" is very likely an artistic error. Note also Angel flies (half-)nude on his own.

[Midnighter]

Yes. I would say that only Carol Danver's scene in the 75th Special is directly linked to the flight of FF's rocket.
Rereading it, it does not say that those moments depicted are all contemporary. In fact the scene with the X-Men and Xavier happens after the scene where the FF got the powers, and the final scene with Kamala Khan has to happen some time later since the FF are on the cover of a magazine with their costumes, so definitely after FF 3 but it can also be after FF 7.

[wolframbane]

Yes. I would say that only Carol Danver's scene in the 75th Special is directly linked to the flight of FF's rocket.
Rereading it, it does not say that those moments depicted are all contemporary. In fact the scene with the X-Men and Xavier happens after the scene where the FF got the powers, and the final scene with Kamala Khan has to happen some time later since the FF are on the cover of a magazine with their costumes, so definitely after FF 3 but it can also be after FF 7.

I assumed that the panel whenre the FF and Ant-Man and Wasp were shown in pictures on the desk were part of the framing story, when Ben Urich was writing his article, rather than the flashbacks.

[StrayLamb]

Okay, i've moved that block incorporating X 38/2-53/2 to immediately after Amazing Fantasy 18, which is the first time we see Thor and Iron Man on the "It's Amazing" tv show, just after their debuts, which is also shortly after FF 7. Does that sound about right?

[StrayLamb]

I've had to move Amazing Fantasy 17 & 18 a bit further down the list as well, since Cyclops' pulic debut is referrenced in AF2 17.

[Troutlaw]

Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine 1/2 can be added here.

[StrayLamb]

It could, but it probably won't be. Adding in a whole bunch of individual panel breakdowns is outside of what we're trying to achieve with these chronologies. That's the same reason you won't find the ASM 94 flashbacks, or PPSM 60/2 among others. I refer you to the Spider-Man character chronology page if you want a break-down for those.

[Leoparis]

Most of Alias 23 (i.e. pages 1-14) needs to take place before ASM 4 (per ASM 601/2). It spreads pages 15-19 over a longer period of time from ASM 4 up to ASM 29 but it's entirely possible.

Alias 22 (17 - 20) occurs during a power outing in the hospital. There is such a power outing at the start of FF 16, you just need to place FF 16 (or at least page 2 of #16) before ASM 4.

There have been two proposals for the figures seen by Jessica, either they're Impossible Man and Super-Skrull, either Jessica has latent premonitory powers. ("Someone on the Jinxworld forums posited that maybe Jess was experiencing a precognitive vision, so that's one possibility that could keep it in.") I'm fine with either one.

If there were indeed two figures looking like Galactus & the Surfer battling over the Baxter Building and the FF unaware of it, you can place the event during FF 16 when the FF are in the microverse.

Alias 22 (17 - 20)
Fantastic Four 15
Tales to Astonish 44 (5:7 - 18)
Strange Tales 111/1
Strange Tales 111/3
Tales to Astonish 45
Alias 22 (17 - 20)
Fantastic Four 16-17
Alias 22 (21 - 22)
Alias 23 (1 - 14)
Amazing Spider-Man 4 (=ASM 601/2-FB)
Amazing Spider-Man 5 (3:4 - 3:7)-FB
Journey Into Mystery 94
Tales to Astonish 46 [Spring]
Tales to Astonish 47 (1 - 6:1)
Journey Into Mystery 95
Fantastic Four 18

INV3 (17:4) Namor renews with the Petersons after regaining memories in FF 4)
FF 4 (11 - 23)
TM/:ID (38 - 45)
INV3 4 (17:4)-FB
FF 6

Thing and Hulk post-FF 12
FF 12
H/TG:HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB
H/TG:HK 4-FB
MARVEL 4/4