FNSM 5

[michel]

There are some problems with FNSM 5 in the MCP.

The story is about a woman, Vanna, writing in her blog through the years. Most sequences have her writing an entry about how she met Spider-Man, so to me we have a succession of sequences with Vanna in the main story (or BTS when we don't see her but just have the blog's entry) and a FB with her and Spider-Man.

Curiosly, the MCP has only the FB with the Vulture, and has it as a FB-FB. I don't think there are any FB-FB, the story is just a succession of sequences covering at least 50 years, with some having plain FB.

Archive 69 Thread 7 proposed some placements

Sequence 1 : (1 - 7) Entry #17
Main : Vanna
(3 - 7)-FB : Vanna, Spider-Man, Flash Thompson, Vulture. The MCP placed it just before UTSM '97

Sequence 2 : (8 - 12) Entry #583
Main : Vanna
(8:3 - 12)-FB : Vanna, Spider-Man, Looter

from Paul Bourcier in Archive 69
The flashback involving the Looter can be placed easily between pages 11 and 12 of ASM 36, in which Spidey battles the villain in a science museum where a meteorite is on display, just like we see in FNSM 5. Unfortunately, that means that this flashback with the Looter (in September of Peter's freshman year of college) must occur a few months, not a "couple years" after the flashback involving the Vulture.

Sequence 3 : (13) Entry #1479
Main : Vanna-BTS
(13)-FB : Vanna, Spider-Man, Sandman (they fight on a beach)

Sequence 4 : (14) Entry #1621
Main : Vanna-BTS
(14)-FB : Vanna, Spider-Man, Rhino (they fight in a bar). Vanna's blog ends with : "But I think I know what to do."

from Paul Bourcier in Archive 69
I believe the flashback involving the Rhino is the very same battle referred to as having occurred BTS earlier in the day in M/TU3 7 (3-22). That's the last time we know that Peter fought the Rhino (aside from M/TU3 11, but the battle there doesn't match the one in FNSM 5), and this flashback can't occur very long ago because it leads Vanna to go after the restraining order we see in the "current" portion of the story.

Sequence 5 : (15 - 16)
Main : Vanna
That's not a blog entry, it looks like it's in the present. Vanna gets a restraining order between her and Spider-Man.

Sequence 6 : (17 - 18) Entry #1622
Main : Vanna-BTS. That's the next entry after sequence 4. The entry begins with : "Well, that didn't take long. As soon as I posted on this blog what I'd done, I got a call from J. Jonah Jameson." [so this entry should be #1623]
(17 - 18)-FB : Vanna, Jonah, Peter Parker. Peter takes a photo of her with the restraining order, that's the front page for the Bugle's next edition.

Sequence 7 : (19 - 22) Entry #15270
In an alternate future, forty years after sequence 6. Vanna meets Spider-Man's widow (presumably Mary-Jane), then begins to write Entry #15270

Vanna doesn't get a listing in the MCP, but it should read :

VANNA
FNSM 5 (3 - 7)-FB
FNSM 5 (1 - 7)
FNSM 5 (8:3 - 12)-FB
FNSM 5 (8 - 12)
FNSM 5 (13)-FB
FNSM 5 (13)-BTS
FNSM 5 (14)-FB
FNSM 5 (14)-BTS
FNSM 5 (15 - 16)
FNSM 5 (17 - 18)-FB
FNSM 5 (17 - 18)-BTS

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
UTSM 23
FNSM 5-FB-FB --> CHANGE TO FNSM 5 (3 - 7)-FB
UTSM '97
...
ASM 148-FB
ASM 36 --> CHANGE TO ASM 36 (1- 11)
FNSM 5 (8:3 - 12)-FB <-- ADD
ASM 36 (12 - 20) <-- ADD
MARVELS 3 (32 - 33)
...
SSM2 10
ASM2 56 (17:4 - 18:4)-FB-BTS
BP3 52
FNSM 5 (13)-FB <-- ADD
SMTGLW 21
...
ASM 515 (16 - 18)
FNSM 5 (14)-FB <-- ADD
M/TU3 7
M/TU3 8-BTS
...
SENSM2 28-FB
FNSM 5 (17 - 18) --> CHANGE TO FNSM 5 (17 - 18)-FB
ASM 529
...

VULTURE IV/ADRIAN TOOMES
...
ASM 18
FNSM 5-FB-FB --> CHANGE TO FNSM 5-FB
ASM 48
...

THOMPSON, CPL. EUGENE "FLASH"
...
[V2 27.1-FB]
FNSM 5-FB-FB --> CHANGE TO FNSM 5-FB
UTSM '97
...

LOOTER II/NORTON G. FESTER
ASM 36 --> CHANGE TO ASM 36 (1- 11)
FNSM 5 (8:3 - 12)-FB <-- ADD
ASM 36 (12 - 20) <-- ADD
M/TU 33
...

SANDMAN II/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO"
...
PPSM 57
FNSM 5 (13)-FB <-- ADD
SH 5
...

RHINO/ALEXSEI MIKHAILOVICH SYTSEVICH/"ALEX O'HIRN"
...
SM:BREAK 3-FB
FNSM 5 (14)-FB <-- ADD
M/TU3 7-BTS
M/TU3 11
...

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
...
M/M:FFF
FNSM 5 --> CHANGE TO FNSM 5-FB
FNSM 6
...

[Col_Fury]

For the times when a flashback happens within a previous story, like say the Looter sequence within ASM 36, wouldn't Vanna be -OP? I mean, she has to be there somewhere, right?

VANNA
FNSM 5 (3 - 7)-FB
FNSM 5 (1 - 7)
ASM 36-OP
FNSM 5 (8:3 - 12)-FB (I'm assuming she ran away and wasn't present for the rest of the fight)
FNSM 5 (8 - 12)
FNSM 5 (13)-FB
FNSM 5 (13)-BTS
FNSM 5 (14)-FB
FNSM 5 (14)-BTS
FNSM 5 (15 - 16)
FNSM 5 (17 - 18)-FB
FNSM 5 (17 - 18)-BTS

Also, on the Alternate Realities page:

VANNA | EARTH-6451
FNSM 5

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE | EARTH-6451
FNSM 5

[michel]

Well, for the Looter FB, it takes place inside the women's toilet, a place we don't visit in ASM 36 ^^ Should Vanna be OP or BTS ?

[Col_Fury]

Probably -BTS, then.

[Antonio Gaviño]

michel wrote:
Archive 69 Thread 7 proposed some placements

Sequence 1 : (1 - 7) Entry #17
Main : Vanna
(3 - 7)-FB : Vanna, Spider-Man, Flash Thompson, Vulture. The MCP placed it just before UTSM '97

This sequence happens between issues 7 and 8 of ASM, I went over it years ago here: viewtopic.php?t=4270 on the entry for Amazing Spider-Man #7.
Basically, the Vulture is in prison from ASM # 2 to ASM # 7, Peter still wears glasses and then fights the Vulture in FNSM # 5, then In ASM # 8 Flash accidentally breaks Peter‘s glasses, which he stops using after that.
By the way, Vanna’s last name is revealed to be Smith on page 17 of FNSM # 5.
Re-reading the issues involved I’ve found inconsistencies around this time period, which I’ll post shortly, but for now it should be:

SMITH, VANNA <-- ADD LAST NAME
...

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 7
FNSM 5 (3 - 7)-FB <-- ADD
WOSM 129.1 (13:2 - 13:4)-FB
IM:IA 2
ST 115
UTSM 3
WOSM 82 (14:3 - 15:4)-FB
ASM 8
...
UTSM 23
FNSM 5-FB-FB --> REMOVE
UTSM '97
...

THOMPSON, CPL. EUGENE "FLASH"
...
ASM 7
FNSM 5-FB <-- ADD
UTSM 3
ASM 8
...
[V2 27.1-FB]
FNSM 5-FB-FB --> REMOVE
UTSM '97
...

VULTURE IV/ADRIAN TOOMES
...
ASM 7
FNSM 5-FB <-- ADD
UTSM 5
...
ASM 18
FNSM 5-FB-FB --> REMOVE
ASM 48
...

[michel]

Good catch Antonio !

[Antonio Gaviño]

Thanks, Michel!

About those inconsistencies I was talking about, let’s start with a quick one. There’s a flashback on UTSM 5 to earlier “this morning” where the Vulture escapes from jail. It’s on page 2, panels 2 to 4.

VULTURE IV/ADRIAN TOOMES
...
ASM 7
FNSM 5-FB
UTSM 5-FB <-- ADD
UTSM 5
...

More to come...

[Antonio Gaviño]

UTSM 3 happens before ASM 8, as correctly reflected on the chronologies for every character appearing in it but Liz Allan’s. For some reason the MCP erroneously has it after it for her.

OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN
...
ASM 7
UTSM 3 <-- MOVE TO HERE
ASM 8
UTSM 3 --> MOVE FROM HERE
UTSM 4
...

I pointed this out 10 years ago when doing the Errata for Spidey’s Index, on the entry for ASM 7; and recently I seem to have noticed some other MCP errors I uncovered at the time that still haven’t been corrected, which raises a few questions for me; should I still bother bringing them up? I’m pretty sure I should, but is this a case of Russ being the only one with the authority to make changes in the past and not enough time to get to them? I see StrayLamb and michel uncovering a lot of these in recent months and I wonder what it takes to get obvious mistakes like this one corrected. Of course, I’m not asking this to disrespect anybody. Just wondering.

[Russ Chappell]

I pointed this out 10 years ago when doing the Errata for Spidey’s Index, on the entry for ASM 7; and recently I seem to have noticed some other MCP errors I uncovered at the time that still haven’t been corrected,

The post you're referring to, from 2009, dealt specifically with errors in the Spider-Man index (as you say). Here's what you said about ASM 7:

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 7
FETURE CHARACTER: Spider-Man (next in FNSM # 5, '06 (The Vulture is in prison from ASM # 2 to ASM # 7 and Peter is in Senior high and wearing glasses in FNSM # 5 (Flash also appears) so they must appear there before ASM # 8. Since we don't see the Vulture taken back to prison at the end of ASM # 7 he probably manages to get free from Spidey's webbing and then fight him again in FNSM # 5), IM: IA # 2, '98 …)
SUPPORTING CHARACTERS: J. Jonah Jameson, May Parker (both chr next in UTOS # 3, '95, next in ASM # 9, '64), Betty Brant (all three chr next in UTOS # 3, '95, next in ASM # 9, '64), Flash Thompson (chr next in S/SM # 1, '01 fb) (Flash is given an appearance in this fb and Peter isn't even though he is in the same scene, not that it matters in this case. I'm guessing the reasoning to place this fb here was that Peter's glasses break in ASM # 8 and they look intact in this fb, although he is not wearing them. Well, the placement is wrong: The Sentry tells Spider-Man that the Void has been working with the Kingpin and Spidey knows the Kingpin better than most; by the time of ASM # 7-8 Spider-Man hasn't even met the Kingpin yet. The flashbacks in S/SM # 1 happen at two or three different instances in time; the first with Doc Ock fighting Spidey while being followed by the Sentry and probably the following day, where Flash appears; the second instance "months" later with the Sentry showing up at Peter's house, we see the unbroken glasses here, to recruit Spidey's help against the Void and the Kingpin and the following dawn with Peter being the first to photograph the Sentry; and probably a third segment the following days or weeks with Robert Reynolds revealed as the Sentry with Peter's picture and Peter attending the Pulitzer's. So, with that in mind we'll leave placement of these flashbacks for when we get to later issues and find more appropriate places for them given the clues at hand) (chr next in FNSM # 5, '06), Liz Allan (chr next in UTOS # 3, '95, all five chr last in UTOS # 2, '95) (At this point I'm a little confused as to what criteria is being used to determine when to list a "last in" appearance for supporting characters, I've noticed they list them sometimes and some other times they don't; I know they omit them if the previous appearance was a few issues earlier in the same series but in most cases they omit them even if there was a "chr last in" appearance. If somebody can clarify that for me I would appreciate it, I would hate to be pointing out something as an omission when it was meant to be that way in the first place)
VILLAIN: Vulture (… chr next in (UTOS # 5, '96) FNSM # 5, '06, next in …)

Now, there's a lot of text in there, so I may have missed it, but I can't find where you're suggesting a change in the MCP's chronologies (and this is the text for one sample issue, in a post that covered over 50 issues).

So, to be fair to me, if you're looking for us to update the chronologies here, it could be a little clearer. You did color code your annotations, which must have taken a lot of time, but it doesn't really help pulling out something for the MCP, when you've stated that all this data is for the Index.

To answer your question, yes, I'm the only one who makes the changes to the chronologies themselves, but I haven't fallen THAT far behind.

[Antonio Gaviño]

I want to stress again that I wasn’t asking this to bug you or anybody. From your response you don’t seem to have taken it in a bad way, which is great. I completely understand missing something out of a long text like that and I marvel at how you can still be the only one making changes. I’m not sure I could do that. I’m sure of one thing though, I can make mistakes. Case in point, I said I suggested the change for the MCP chronology of Liz Allan on the entry for ASM 7 when I actually should have said ASM 8. It’s In there. At the time, I remember thinking of doing a separate post for any errors I found on the MCP while covering the Index but I thought it would be redundant. Anyway, if I come across any other errors on any character’s MCP chronology that I already mentioned before I’ll just bring them up again, this time with a better understanding of why they still haven’t been fixed. It’s all good.

[Russ Chappell]

Naw, everything's cool. You're trying to help, and we appreciate that.

I do want to mention, though (for everyone's benefit), you're right, a lot of michel's and StrayLamb's corrections have made their way into the Project recently, and the reason why is that they follow two simple guidelines:

Guideline 1. They're careful to distinguish between
a) I like my chronology better than yours, so please change it; and
b) The chronologies contradict themselves and therefore something MUST be wrong
If it's a case of (a) my likely response is "Your personal chronology differs from ours. We can live with that."

Guideline 2. They offer concise and clear directions for how they think the chronologies SHOULD read.

Anyone who follows those two guidelines will have a much stronger case for seeing their corrections make it into the Project.

[Antonio Gaviño]

Good to know. I believe I follow those guidelines when I make suggestions, although in this case I was referring to involuntary errors more than anything. It sure looks like it was involuntary when you compare Liz Allan’s chronology with everybody else’s appearing in the issue.

[Antonio Gaviño]

Question for michel, StrayLamb, Russ or whoever can provide an answer. What’s the criteria for adding page and panel range to flashbacks? I know you do it to differentiate flashbacks when a character has more than one flashback within the same issue, but when a character has only one flashback in an issue? Taking michel’s first post on this thread as an example, he is adding page/panel range to his proposed additions for Sandman And Rhino’s chronologies but not for J. Jonah Jameson’s. Some clarification would be appreciated.

[michel]

Russ gave me a full explanation on FBs in this post, and it looks like I didn't pay enough attention here, Sandman and Rhino shouldn't have their FB numbered.

[Russ Chappell]

I don't have a problem with including page ranges in these corrections, even when they're not needed. It communicates, and that's a good thing. The post that michel has pointed to was in answer to Michel's question about how we treated page ranges in the listings. If you include page ranges in your post that aren't needed, they won't make it into the listings, but there's certainly no rule that you eliminate them from your posts, and they're not "frowned on" at all.