IH2 127-130 and FFWGCM 5-6

[Leoparis]

Inserting FFWGCM 5-6 in the Hulk's chronology is a thorny problem. FFWGCM takes places circa FF 100 (Jul 70). The Avengers appearances in FFWGCM have been placed after A 83 (Dec 70). I don't know why it was not placed between A 76 (Jun 70) & A 77 (Jul 70). This is relevant because the Avengers appear in IH2 128 (Jun 70) shortly after A 76 (the Scarlet Witch is concerned that her powers have been effectively restored as Arkon claimed would happen).

Geographically, Hulk was in New York between 126 (May 70) & 127 (Jun 70) but placing FFWGCM there would affect the Avengers and all characters appearing in A 77-83. So I will not attempt it.

Hulk's appearance in CM 20-21 refers to his recent bout with the Avengers in IH2 128 and continues directly into 130 (Hulk tore Navapo univesrsity "a few hours ago"). Then Hulk & Banner are split so FFWGCM 5-6 cannot occur between 130 & 131 and from there the issue-to-issue continuity is so tight that FFWGCM 5-6 has to happen earlier, in the temporal break of unknown length before CM 20.

I found a narrative break and a discrepancy that we can turn to our advantage. At the beginning of IH2 129 Banner is outside the LA area (continuing from the end of 128). On page 10 several days pass between 10:1 and 10:2 during which the Glob, sent by the Leader, crosses the country from Florida. The Glob reaches Banner in the sewers in LA on page 11. On page 10 Banner mentions there is a cordon around LA, which implies the Hulk must have been sighted recently. A newspaper mentions a monster believed to be the Hulk rampaging through the US. In the context of the story it is understood this monster is the Glob but it could have been the Hulk returning from NY (or even both monsters crossing westward) now that we must fit FFWGCM 5-6 somewhere in Hulk's chronology.

Incidentally GSM-T 1 (which summarizes IH2 129) claims the fight between the Hulk & the Glob occurred in Miami, so maybe Banner was actually on the East Coast, wrongly believing to be in LA (he's in the Southwest in his next chronological appearance, CM 20). In this scenario Hulk reaches Miami from NYC and the Glob hardly moves so that it is indeed the Hulk who was reported crossing the country in the newspaper. In any case, that's the only likely gap I could find which does not require reworking a dozen characters.

GSM-T 1 page 10 simply recaps IH2 129 (and quotes this issue as the source!).
Note: pages 12 & 13 of IH2 129 were half-pages, making the story 19 or 20 pages depending on how you count. I provide both accounts.

HULK/ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
GLOB
IH2 129 (1 - 11)
GSM-T 1 (10:1)-FB = IH2 129 (12:2) delete
IH2 129 (12 - 13:1)
GSM-T 1 (10:2)-FB = IH2 129 (13:1) (or 12:4) delete
IH2 129 (13:2 - 14)
GSM-T 1 (10:3)-FB = IH2 129 (15:1) (or 14:1) delete
IH2 129 (15 - 19:4)
GSM-T 1 (10:4)-FB = IH2 129 (19:2 & 19:3) (or 18:2 & 18:3) delete
IH2 129 (19:5 - 20)

HULK/ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
**IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) add range
**FFWGCM 5 NY move here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move here
**IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) add line
CM 20
CM 21
**FFWGCM 5 NY move from here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move from here
IH2 130 (follows straight from CM 21)

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
A 72
**FFWGCM 9 move here
**FFWGCM 10 move here
CM 20
CM 21
**FFWGCM 9 move from here
**FFWGCM 10 move from here
SUB 30

Note: Depending on whether the time between FFWGCM 6 & 9 is long enough for Hulk to reach the city in IH2 129 (10:2), Mar-Vell & Rick Jones chronology could remain unchanged (but I think that's unlikely as the events in FFWGCM occur in rapid succession):
IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) > FFWGCM 5-6 (time to reach LA or Miami from NYC) > IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) (time to reach NM cave lab from LA or Miami) > CM 20-21 > FFWGCM 9-10 > etc

Revised Dec 4 to fix typos and refine the arguments.

[Arthur]

Regarding the GSM-T 1 flashbacks, seeing as I originally reported them I feel somewhat obligated to explain them.

GSM-T 1 (10:1)-FB = IH2 129 (12:2) delete

Granted the differences are minimal, but in GSM-T 1 (10:1)-FB the only parts of the Hulk that are above water are his upper arms and upper torso, indicating he is just breaking the surface at that time. In IH2 129 (12:2) he is standing and the water level is several inches below his waist. Obviously later. Not that much difference but not the same either.

GSM-T 1 (10:2)-FB = IH2 129 (13:1) (or 12:4) delete

As IH2 129 (13:1) shows the Hulk in the air after just being struck, and GSM-T 1 (10:2)-FB shows him hitting the wall, I’m hard pressed to say they show the same scene.

GSM-T 1 (10:3)-FB = IH2 129 (15:1) (or 14:1) delete

Okay.. this one’s a little weak,. In GSM-T 1 (10:3)-FB the Hulk is further away from the pit and hoisting a car. By IH2 129 (15:1). He has exchanged the car for a much better weapon, a tanker truck, and is standing at the edge of the pit.

GSM-T 1 (10:4)-FB = IH2 129 (19:2 & 19:3) (or 18:2 & 18:3) delete

In GSM-T 1 (10:4)-FB the Glob has climbed to within approximately 4 feet away from the Hulk. In IH2 129 (19:2) the Glob is still on the ground and in IH2 129 (19:3) he is definitely further away than 4 ft; Again. I don’t see them as equal.

[Leoparis]

Regarding the GSM-T 1 flashbacks, seeing as I originally reported them I feel somewhat obligated to explain them.

GSM-T 1 (10:1)-FB = IH2 129 (12:2) delete

Granted the differences are minimal, but in GSM-T 1 (10:1)-FB the only parts of the Hulk that are above water are his upper arms and upper torso, indicating he is just breaking the surface at that time. In IH2 129 (12:2) he is standing and the water level is several inches below his waist. Obviously later. Not that much difference but not the same either.

GSM-T 1 (10:2)-FB = IH2 129 (13:1) (or 12:4) delete

As IH2 129 (13:1) shows the Hulk in the air after just being struck, and GSM-T 1 (10:2)-FB shows him hitting the wall, I’m hard pressed to say they show the same scene.

GSM-T 1 (10:3)-FB = IH2 129 (15:1) (or 14:1) delete

Okay.. this one’s a little weak,. In GSM-T 1 (10:3)-FB the Hulk is further away from the pit and hoisting a car. By IH2 129 (15:1). He has exchanged the car for a much better weapon, a tanker truck, and is standing at the edge of the pit.

GSM-T 1 (10:4)-FB = IH2 129 (19:2 & 19:3) (or 18:2 & 18:3) delete

In GSM-T 1 (10:4)-FB the Glob has climbed to within approximately 4 feet away from the Hulk. In IH2 129 (19:2) the Glob is still on the ground and in IH2 129 (19:3) he is definitely further away than 4 ft; Again. I don’t see them as equal.

It was customary to include flashbacks in that era. We would do well to align our practice of adding flashbacks on the flashbacks categories from the Official Index: fb flashback, pfb previous flashback, dfb during flashback, rfb reminder flashback.
"A reminder flashback is a flashback that reshows past events with no new content."

That is the purpose of that flashback in GSM-T 1, to reshow the events of IH2 129.
The slight differences in the drawings such as the number of feet separating the characters while climbing the tower or the number of inches of his waist above water level or a split second difference showing Hulk in the air vs hitting the wall do not make these different scenes. They're just artistic differences.

Yes, they're not strictly identical but they absolutely intend to show the same scenes. Besides the artistic trend to redraw flashbacks by tracing the original did not start until the 80s with Ron Frenz and John Byrne but that trend never got adopted by every artist.

We don't need to include reminder flashbacks. They're such a waste of time. When I review a listing, it is always very disappointing to find such reminder flashbacks added. Not only don't they add anything but they break the narrative pacing by adding visuals which are a different angle or a split second before or after the original. By trying to condense the action the writer or penciler will often alter the original but it does not mean he's adding a new scene. (cf. my post on IH2 141 and H2 18)

What does the reader who wants to read Hulk's chronology need to interrupt his reading of IH2 129 to zigzag back and forth between IH2 129 and GSM-T 1 to find the same scenes? Same for the additions to IH2 121 & 126. The listings here used to serve as chronological reading and even if this is not their prime purpose we are weakening their utility as such with rather pointless zigzagging.

The definition of a scene is a sequence of continuous action in a play, film, opera, or book.

A scene is not a single frozen shot. The action shot stands for the continuous action it represents not for the split second. These panels have a narrative function and interact with the bordering panels. Their continuous narrative function is most obvious when you have long dialog covering several seconds but is always true. This is why the same action sequence no matter the difference in inches or feet counts as the same scene in my book.

I have touched on that point a number of times:
for TTA 96 & WCA@ 3 https://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vi ... =2&t=16270
for H 141 & H2 18 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17583
for M/FEA 1 & LASTDEF 5 https://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vi ... =2&t=17942
for Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks and Fantastic Four 12 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15727
for IIM 3 & IM 173 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15999&p=60418#p60418
etc

[Russ Chappell]

The slight differences in the drawings such as the number of feet separating the characters while climbing the tower or the number of inches of his waist above water level or a split second difference showing Hulk in the air vs hitting the wall do not make these different scenes. They're just artistic differences.

That's...not the way we do it.

We don't need to include reminder flashbacks. They're such a waste of time. When I review a listing, it is always very disappointing to find such reminder flashbacks added. Not only don't they add anything but they break the narrative pacing by adding visuals which are a different angle or a split second before or after the original. By trying to condense the action the writer or penciler will often alter the original but it does not mean he's adding a new scene. (cf. my post on IH2 141 and H2 18)

What does the reader who wants to read Hulk's chronology need to interrupt his reading of IH2 129 to zigzag back and forth between IH2 129 and GSM-T 1 to find the same scenes? Same for the additions to IH2 121 & 126. The listings here used to serve as chronological reading and even if this is not their prime purpose we are weakening their utility as such with rather pointless zigzagging.

That was never our purpose, prime or otherwise.

[metaldragon]

Leoparis, have you factored in Hulk’s crossovers with the X-Men and the X-Men’s crossovers with the Fantastic Four during this period? It’s very tightly knit. X-Men: The Hidden Years locks the timeframe for when FFWGCM occurs to a very specific window between The (Uncanny) X-Men #66 (where Hulk appears) and X-Men: The Hidden Years #1 (which storyline leads into a crossover with the Magneto vs FF story in FF 102 without a break for the X-Men where their appearances in FFWGCM could occur.)

[Leoparis]

I believe I factored in everything as you can see in Post-X-Men 66, Hulk and SMF2 9 and Savage Hulk v2 #1-6.

But none of these characters (X-Men, Fantastic Four) are affected by this small move from just before Hulk 130 to the middle of Hulk 129. The only two that are affected are Captain Mar-Vell and Rick Jones.

Placing FFWGCM 5-6 between CM 21 and Hulk 130 breaks three continuities tying these issues: temporal, geographical and plot. Hulk 130 specifically refers to CM 21 as occurring a few hours ago, both issues take place close to Desert University and the plot is that Banner is contacting his former professors in order to get their help in curing his condition.

I think Herb Trimpe drew the professor differently from Gil Kane, which forced Roy to write the latter professor (Stoddard) as a temporary replacement for the former (Weller) who had to rest following the riot in CM 21. Banner asks if Weller is all right and Stoddard replies he's replacing him for a night session or two. This is yet another indication that CM 21 and IH2 130 happen right after the other without any real possibility of inserting FFWGCM.

Now, if you're referring to my comment that I would have expected FFWGCM to take place between Hulk 126 & 127, I had not looked into it precisely because it involved too many characters (all those from A 77-83 and those from FFWGCM 1-12). Based on the Scarlet Witch's comment in H 128, her powers have not returned since A 76, but she uses them in FFWGCM 8 (& A 77), which makes A 76 > H 126 > FFWGCM 1-12 > H 127-128 slightly difficult.

Since X 66 occurs between H 124 & 125, FFWGCM could occur after H 126 (H 124 > X 66 > SAVH2 1-4 > H 125-126 > FFWGCM > X:HY > FF 102) and actually the earlier you place FFWGCM in the Hulk chronology the better in order to fit the twelve issues of FFWGCM and the 22 issues of X:HY.

I cannot say if Scarlet Witch using her powers was the factor that placed FFWGCM after A 83. I did not find a detailed analysis. I've looked at the archives 61-63 where FFWGCM was first discussed. It lacked a chronological analysis for most characters.

Again, I only recommend the small move from just before Hulk 130 to the middle of Hulk 129 in the days-long break page 10 during which Banner could have gone to New York and back to LA (or possibly Miami since we have included the recap panels in the chronology). And this placement can be supported both by the days-long break and by the newspaper mention of a Hulk-like being crossing the country (i.e. during this days-long break Hulk would have left LA for NYC and recently crossed the country again).

I have revised the original post to make this clearer.

[StrayLamb]

I agree that FFWGCM 5-6 is incorrectly placed for Hulk. As Leoparis has pointed out, IH2 130 follows on almost immediately from CM 20-22, however, i would rather more simply place FFWGCM 5-6 in the temporal break between IH2 129 & CM 20. Chronologically, IH2 129 takes place in early Spring, whereas FFWGCM & X:HY take place in the Autumn, after Halloween. The only possible objection that i can see is that in CM 20, Mar-Vell complains that Rick hasn't called on him in months, but in Annihilation Scourge: Nova 1, it's established that roughly 18 days pass in the Negative Zone for one day in on Earth, so even a week for Rick would be months for Mar-Vell.

Suggested updates..

HULK/ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
---
**FFWGCM 5 NY move here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move here
CM 20
CM 21
**FFWGCM 5 NY move from here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move from here
IH2 130 (follows straight from CM 21)
---

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
A 72
**FFWGCM 9 move here
**FFWGCM 10 move here
CM 20
CM 21
**FFWGCM 9 move from here
**FFWGCM 10 move from here
SUB 30

[Leoparis]

Hulk's appearance in CM 20-21 refers to his recent bout with the Avengers in IH2 128 and continues directly into 130 (Hulk tore Navapo univesrsity "a few hours ago").

I'm referring to Banner's words on page 18 of CM 20 about Rick "How did he guess I'd be here... after I narrowly escaped the Avengers?"

That was my reason for trying to reduce the number of days between IH2 128 and CM 20.


This is the publication schedule:
Captain Marvel #19 December 1969 1969-09-16
Avengers #72 January 1970 1969-11-18 Captain Marvel
...
Incredible Hulk #128 June 1970 1970-03-17 Avengers fight Hulk
Captain Marvel #20 June 1970 1970-03-24 Banner turns into Hulk, mentions Avengers
Incredible Hulk #129 July 1970 1970-04-14 Hulk fight vs Glob
Captain Marvel #21 August 1970 1970-05-05 Hulk fight vs Hulk
Incredible Hulk #130 August 1970 1970-05-12 follows from CM 21

Even though CM 21 follows straight from CM 20, Banner's comment about the Avengers was published before IH2 129. Because of the bi-monthly schedule of Captain Marvel, IH2 129 is a sort of "fill-in" falling between CM 20 & 21, except it's written as if several days pass, contradicting Banner's words. And of course that problem is compounded by adding FFWGCM 5-6 & 9-10, which puts the lie to both Mar-Vell's and Banner's comments.

The sequence...
IH2 128 > IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) follows immediately > few days for Glob to cross the country and make it in the newspapers during which FFWGCM 5-6 Hulk/Banner in NYC > IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) fight with Glob > CM 20-21 fight with Captain Marvel (mentions recent Avengers fight)

by combining the few days of the break for Glob's journey with those involving Hulk's trip and stay in NYC for FFWGCM 5-6 is necessarily shorter by a few days than...

IH2 128 > IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) follows immediately > few days for Glob to cross the country and make it in the newspapers > IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) fight with Glob > FFWGCM 5-6 Hulk/Banner in NYC (few days) > CM 20-21 fight with Captain Marvel (mentions recent Avengers fight)


A solution is to have one of the following chronologies where CM 20-21 occurs between FFWGCM 6 & 9:
IH2 128 > IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) follows immediately > few days for Glob to cross the country and make it in the newspapers during which FFWGCM 5-6 Hulk/Banner in NYC > IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) fight with Glob > CM 20-21 fight with Captain Marvel (mentions recent Avengers fight) > FFWGCM 9-10
This preserves (as much as possible) the recentness of the Avengers fight.

IH2 128 > IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) follows immediately > few days for Glob to cross the country and make it in the newspapers during which > IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) fight with Glob > FFWGCM 5-6 Hulk/Banner in NYC > CM 20-21 fight with Captain Marvel (mentions recent Avengers fight) > FFWGCM 9-10
This preserves the "months long" comment between A 72 and CM 20 and seems to be the best compromise.


HULK/ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
---
**FFWGCM 5 NY move here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move here
CM 20
CM 21
**FFWGCM 5 NY move from here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move from here
IH2 130 (follows straight from CM 21)

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
A 72
CM 20 "months since Rick called Mar-Vell"
CM 21
FFWGCM 9 keep here
FFWGCM 10 keep here
SUB 30

[StrayLamb]

IH2 128 > IH2 129 (1 - 10:1) follows immediately > few days for Glob to cross the country and make it in the newspapers during which > IH2 129 (10:2 - 20) fight with Glob > FFWGCM 5-6 Hulk/Banner in NYC > CM 20-21 fight with Captain Marvel (mentions recent Avengers fight) > FFWGCM 9-10
This preserves the "months long" comment between A 72 and CM 20 and seems to be the best compromise.

I find this sequence to be preferential. Another reason for having CM 20-21 after FFWGCM 5-6 for Banner is that in CM 21, he mentions having discussed the Negative Zone portal with Reed Richards - something he would have been able to do during FFWGCM 5-6.

There's not much of a break during FFWGCM 5-9, but there are two interstices during FFWGCM 1-12, one between issues 4 & 5 of a few days duration, and one between issues 8 & 9. The latter break, which concerns us, is probably not too long, but could well be another day or two, allowing time for Banner to reach his desert lab for CM 20-21. FFWGCM 9-12 are continuous, and take place over probably no more than a few hours. CM 20 & 21 (1 - 5) take place over a few hours, from the early hours until just after dawn.

Therefore, i would suggest a break in CM 21 for Rick & Mar-Vell, between pages 5 & 6. At this juncture, some time has passed while Banner has been working on building a Negative Zone portal, leaving him exhausted, and i would suggest that Mar-Vell detects Dr Doom in the Negative Zone, and Rick heads back to NYC to warn the FF during this break.

---
Fantastic Four 100
Fantastic Four: World’s Greatest Comic Magazine 1-4
Fantastic Four: World’s Greatest Comic Magazine 5-8 [A few days later; Banner in NY with FF]
Captain Marvel 20 [Banner in desert lab]
Captain Marvel 21 (1-5) [Rick in desert lab]
Fantastic Four: World’s Greatest Comic Magazine 9-12 [Possibly a day or two later; Rick heads to NYC to warn FF that Dr Doom is in the Negative Zone]
Captain Marvel 21 (6-20) [Rick and Banner in desert lab]
Incredible Hulk 130-135
---

HULK/ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
---
**FFWGCM 5 NY move here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move here
CM 20
CM 21
**FFWGCM 5 NY move from here
**FFWGCM 6 NY move from here
IH2 130 (follows straight from CM 21)

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL
JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
---
A 72
CM 20 "months since Rick called Mar-Vell"
CM 21 (1 - 5) * SPLIT HERE
FFWGCM 9 keep here
FFWGCM 10 keep here
CM 21 (6 - 20) * SPLIT HERE
SUB 30
---

[Leoparis]

Nice! So rather than having the Hulk travel to NYC while the Glob is crossing the country we have Jones travel to NYC while Banner works on the machine.