Clive_Reston wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:27 am DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2 has a loooong flashback (pp. 4-16) that takes place at a time when Elektra is the Kingpin's assassin and... Spider-Man is in his black suit. OW OW OW OW OW. Which is to say: for it to work, sometime between DD 190 and DD 322, Elektra has to have left the Chaste, come back to NYC, and worked as an assassin for Fisk again, pretty extensively, without anyone but Fisk or Emma Frost knowing about it (to be fair, it's presented as a no-surviving-witnesses kind of deal, but still).
(EDITED TO ADD: On reflection, I think it may be fair to treat it the same way as UX@2 2 -FB --which is to say, to consider it Emma's flashback, and to note that her repeated brain traumas have caused her to misremember some visual details. Spider-Man in black rather than in red-and-blue here, Selene rather than Tessa there...)
There are also some briefer flashbacks that will have to be placed based on Sue Richards' outfit and hairstyle, Tony Stark's facial hair, etc.
Col_Fury wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:35 pm I'm inclined to say Emma remembered the wrong Spider-costume etc. than to invent an entire period where Elektra is alive in public, working her old job at a time when she's supposed to be dead.
Faulty memory, art error, whatever. It's the lesser of two evils in this case, I think.
Leoparis wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:58 pm Elektra is cleaned in DD 190 (Jan 83), dresses in white, joins the Chaste, shaves her head and only gets corrupted again in Fall from Grace (1993) when she reintegrates the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett. Could the scenes of Erynys getting that part of Elektra's essence in Fall From Grace be interpreted as flashbacks so that the Elektra seen by Emma and the little girl are is actually Erynys? Emma would see "her" with her mind and that would translate as "Elektra."
I've also considered Typhoid Mary impersonating Elektra with Kingpin's approval. Spider-Man ditches the black costume in ASM 300 (May 88) and Typhoid Mary starts working for the Kinpin in DD 254 (May 88) so there is a small window where the Kingpin could trap Emma Frost with a fake story of "Elektra" needing a witness removed. Spider-Man just before ASM 300, Typhoid Mary just after DD 254.
Jason Doty wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pmThis seems like a clever solution, with keeping intact both stories without an explanation. We can just assume that Erynys got darker over time.Could the scenes of Erynys getting that part of Elektra's essence in Fall From Grace be interpreted as flashbacks so that the Elektra seen by Emma and the little girl are is actually Erynys?
Clive_Reston wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:18 pm I like it, but it still has the problem of someone who's apparently Elektra operating in NYC at a time when everyone believes she's dead...!
Leoparis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:20 pm For Elektra, whatever we try to come up with that involves a black costumed Spider-Man--real Elektra, Erinye, Typhoid Mary--it's going to clash with a supposedly dead Elektra. BUT in DD 190 the Hand tries to steal the corpse of Elektra to resurrect her. Given their ability to resurrect their warriors, an Elektra active in the mid-80s as an assassin would hardly be so surprising. "Oh yeah, it's the Hand, they resurrected her. They do that all the time."
(Note also she does not leave any witness alive in that story so it matters little whether people think she's dead if there's nobody left to be surprised by her presence.)
The most unlikely option is that it's the real Elektra since she's supposed to be sinless and living with the Chaste.
I've not done a close reading of Fall From Grace to check if Erinye's origin can actually take place several years earlier in Marvel's continuity. On one hand it raises the question of why would they lend their fake Elektra to Kingpin? On the other hand, if the Hand lent a fake Elektra to Kingpin people would be convinced that's the real Elektra. It leaves open the matter of choosing a time from 1984 to 1988 to place the story.
I slightly prefer my Typhoid Mary solution. It slightly reinterprets Duggan's story. Rather than the real Elektra--since that cannot be her--seeking help from Emma, that's actually a plot from the Kingpin to involve Emma in the suspicious disappearance of a child. It is established that Typhoid Mary works for Kingpin and that he wants her to mess with Daredevil. Let's say he first planned of Mary impersonating Elektra and then thought that wouldn't work as DD would see through it and then shifted to "Have him fall in love with you as you are and then break his heart". Another advantage is that it pinpoints Spider-Man's placement: in May 1988.
I suggested the problem and my solution to Duggan on Twitter, he just made a joke. Probably I should reach the editor.
Of course we can just dismiss the black costume but on what basis?
Clive_Reston wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:37 pm My potential issue with the Typhoid solution is that Elektra is one of the central characters of Daredevil/Devil's Reign, and the point of this story seems to be establishing that she and Emma have some shared history! (And my argument for my "Emma is misremembering some visual details" solution is that it allows everyone in the story to be who they appear to be, and also has a bit of precedent.) But maybe something in #3 will offer additional useful evidence...
Col_Fury wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:52 pm I just read the issue and it's plainly Elektra. Like Clive just said, it's setting up a shared history between Emma and Elektra; that just doesn't work if it's Typhoid Mary in disguise or anyone else for that matter. It's Elektra. Also, it's obviously before Elektra's death; otherwise Emma would be all like "Aren't you dead? Why aren't you dead?" for at least four or five pages.
Having said that, Emma was pretty dismissive of Spider-Man, and not really paying that much attention to him (until she read his mind). He was a nearby useful idiot, as far as she was concerned.
I'm firmly in the "Emma misremembered Spider-Man's costume" corner. I usually dislike using "art error" as an explanation but I don't see any other option in this instance. Someone being alive when they're supposed to be dead is more important than someone's clothes, in my mind.
There are fair objections to replacing Elektra with someone else. But I already covered some of those.Leoparis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:26 pm I think I figured what happened in the writer's mind. Fall from Grace (1992) refers to Elektra: Assassin (1985-86). Duggan (born 1973) when reading those stories as a child might have believed Elektra: Assassin took place between DD 190 and 323, at the same time that Spidey had a black costume (1984-88). Or, less probably, he first read the Elektra stories in Elektra Saga 1-4 (Feb-May 1984) and thought this mini-series contemporary with 1984 issues (ASM 252, May 1984 is the first appearance of the black costume) rather than a reprint.
Not that it helps us in any way but it points to when Duggan thought it was taking place. Invisible Woman is also depicted in her negative costume (est. 1983).
1. When you introduce the "misremembering" gambit, that can also work for the elements that allow one to say "this is really Elektra."
2. If the precedent is Uncanny X-Men Annual 2 with Selene/Tessa, that's also a case of wrong character because of the time frame involved.
3. The "What aren't you dead?" I have already explained. The Hand was already about to resurrect Elektra like they do all their members.
4. And Emma and Elektra didn't know each other anyway. We have no background that would even establish that Emma knew who Elektra was or that she would know an Elektra had died.
(Note on semantics: Elektra is supposed to be alive after DD 190. She's just believed to be dead by Kingpin, Bullseye, Murdock and associates. Outside those circles who knew Elektra?)
5. And the matter of a believed-to-be-dead person going around when there are never any witness to wonder about it is rather moot.
Unless we have another story where Elektra refers to that shared history we are free to reinterpret
Now, the third issue shows Elektra "wanting forgiveness" training the girl in martial arts. This is at odds with the ruthless killer from the previous issue. This also refutes the Typhoid as Elektra hypothesis. Emma states that the Genosha genocide (2001) is what prevented her from bringing Isabelle home.
This leaves the following scenario if, like me, you don't want to dismiss Spidey's black costume on Emma's "bad memory":
Elektra leaves part of her essence in Garrett (Elektra: Assassin 8) > Elektra dies (DD 181) > The Hand tries to revive Elektra, DD cleans her soul, she's resurrected by Stone and joins the Chaste in a white costume (DD 190) > Erynys gets the Elektra essence from Garrett (DD 323) > she acts as assassin for Kingpin leaving no witnesses and involves Emma Frost into disappearing Isabelle to set her up (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2) > Elektra in white costume recovers her essence (and some related memories) from Erynys (DD 325) > "wanting forgiveness" she tracks down Isabelle and trains her (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2)