Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

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Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Leoparis »

I have collated all previous remarks to address the flashback.
Clive_Reston wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:27 am DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2 has a loooong flashback (pp. 4-16) that takes place at a time when Elektra is the Kingpin's assassin and... Spider-Man is in his black suit. OW OW OW OW OW. Which is to say: for it to work, sometime between DD 190 and DD 322, Elektra has to have left the Chaste, come back to NYC, and worked as an assassin for Fisk again, pretty extensively, without anyone but Fisk or Emma Frost knowing about it (to be fair, it's presented as a no-surviving-witnesses kind of deal, but still).

(EDITED TO ADD: On reflection, I think it may be fair to treat it the same way as UX@2 2 -FB --which is to say, to consider it Emma's flashback, and to note that her repeated brain traumas have caused her to misremember some visual details. Spider-Man in black rather than in red-and-blue here, Selene rather than Tessa there...)

There are also some briefer flashbacks that will have to be placed based on Sue Richards' outfit and hairstyle, Tony Stark's facial hair, etc.
Col_Fury wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:35 pm I'm inclined to say Emma remembered the wrong Spider-costume etc. than to invent an entire period where Elektra is alive in public, working her old job at a time when she's supposed to be dead.

Faulty memory, art error, whatever. It's the lesser of two evils in this case, I think.
Leoparis wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:58 pm Elektra is cleaned in DD 190 (Jan 83), dresses in white, joins the Chaste, shaves her head and only gets corrupted again in Fall from Grace (1993) when she reintegrates the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett. Could the scenes of Erynys getting that part of Elektra's essence in Fall From Grace be interpreted as flashbacks so that the Elektra seen by Emma and the little girl are is actually Erynys? Emma would see "her" with her mind and that would translate as "Elektra."

I've also considered Typhoid Mary impersonating Elektra with Kingpin's approval. Spider-Man ditches the black costume in ASM 300 (May 88) and Typhoid Mary starts working for the Kinpin in DD 254 (May 88) so there is a small window where the Kingpin could trap Emma Frost with a fake story of "Elektra" needing a witness removed. Spider-Man just before ASM 300, Typhoid Mary just after DD 254.
Jason Doty wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
Could the scenes of Erynys getting that part of Elektra's essence in Fall From Grace be interpreted as flashbacks so that the Elektra seen by Emma and the little girl are is actually Erynys?
This seems like a clever solution, with keeping intact both stories without an explanation. We can just assume that Erynys got darker over time.
Clive_Reston wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:18 pm I like it, but it still has the problem of someone who's apparently Elektra operating in NYC at a time when everyone believes she's dead...!
Leoparis wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:20 pm For Elektra, whatever we try to come up with that involves a black costumed Spider-Man--real Elektra, Erinye, Typhoid Mary--it's going to clash with a supposedly dead Elektra. BUT in DD 190 the Hand tries to steal the corpse of Elektra to resurrect her. Given their ability to resurrect their warriors, an Elektra active in the mid-80s as an assassin would hardly be so surprising. "Oh yeah, it's the Hand, they resurrected her. They do that all the time."

(Note also she does not leave any witness alive in that story so it matters little whether people think she's dead if there's nobody left to be surprised by her presence.)

The most unlikely option is that it's the real Elektra since she's supposed to be sinless and living with the Chaste.

I've not done a close reading of Fall From Grace to check if Erinye's origin can actually take place several years earlier in Marvel's continuity. On one hand it raises the question of why would they lend their fake Elektra to Kingpin? On the other hand, if the Hand lent a fake Elektra to Kingpin people would be convinced that's the real Elektra. It leaves open the matter of choosing a time from 1984 to 1988 to place the story.

I slightly prefer my Typhoid Mary solution. It slightly reinterprets Duggan's story. Rather than the real Elektra--since that cannot be her--seeking help from Emma, that's actually a plot from the Kingpin to involve Emma in the suspicious disappearance of a child. It is established that Typhoid Mary works for Kingpin and that he wants her to mess with Daredevil. Let's say he first planned of Mary impersonating Elektra and then thought that wouldn't work as DD would see through it and then shifted to "Have him fall in love with you as you are and then break his heart". Another advantage is that it pinpoints Spider-Man's placement: in May 1988.

I suggested the problem and my solution to Duggan on Twitter, he just made a joke. Probably I should reach the editor.

Of course we can just dismiss the black costume but on what basis?
Clive_Reston wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:37 pm My potential issue with the Typhoid solution is that Elektra is one of the central characters of Daredevil/Devil's Reign, and the point of this story seems to be establishing that she and Emma have some shared history! (And my argument for my "Emma is misremembering some visual details" solution is that it allows everyone in the story to be who they appear to be, and also has a bit of precedent.) But maybe something in #3 will offer additional useful evidence...
Col_Fury wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:52 pm I just read the issue and it's plainly Elektra. Like Clive just said, it's setting up a shared history between Emma and Elektra; that just doesn't work if it's Typhoid Mary in disguise or anyone else for that matter. It's Elektra. Also, it's obviously before Elektra's death; otherwise Emma would be all like "Aren't you dead? Why aren't you dead?" for at least four or five pages.

Having said that, Emma was pretty dismissive of Spider-Man, and not really paying that much attention to him (until she read his mind). He was a nearby useful idiot, as far as she was concerned.

I'm firmly in the "Emma misremembered Spider-Man's costume" corner. I usually dislike using "art error" as an explanation but I don't see any other option in this instance. Someone being alive when they're supposed to be dead is more important than someone's clothes, in my mind.
Leoparis wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:26 pm I think I figured what happened in the writer's mind. Fall from Grace (1992) refers to Elektra: Assassin (1985-86). Duggan (born 1973) when reading those stories as a child might have believed Elektra: Assassin took place between DD 190 and 323, at the same time that Spidey had a black costume (1984-88). Or, less probably, he first read the Elektra stories in Elektra Saga 1-4 (Feb-May 1984) and thought this mini-series contemporary with 1984 issues (ASM 252, May 1984 is the first appearance of the black costume) rather than a reprint.

Not that it helps us in any way but it points to when Duggan thought it was taking place. Invisible Woman is also depicted in her negative costume (est. 1983).
There are fair objections to replacing Elektra with someone else. But I already covered some of those.

1. When you introduce the "misremembering" gambit, that can also work for the elements that allow one to say "this is really Elektra."

2. If the precedent is Uncanny X-Men Annual 2 with Selene/Tessa, that's also a case of wrong character because of the time frame involved.

3. The "What aren't you dead?" I have already explained. The Hand was already about to resurrect Elektra like they do all their members.

4. And Emma and Elektra didn't know each other anyway. We have no background that would even establish that Emma knew who Elektra was or that she would know an Elektra had died.

(Note on semantics: Elektra is supposed to be alive after DD 190. She's just believed to be dead by Kingpin, Bullseye, Murdock and associates. Outside those circles who knew Elektra?)

5. And the matter of a believed-to-be-dead person going around when there are never any witness to wonder about it is rather moot.

Unless we have another story where Elektra refers to that shared history we are free to reinterpret

Now, the third issue shows Elektra "wanting forgiveness" training the girl in martial arts. This is at odds with the ruthless killer from the previous issue. This also refutes the Typhoid as Elektra hypothesis. Emma states that the Genosha genocide (2001) is what prevented her from bringing Isabelle home.

This leaves the following scenario if, like me, you don't want to dismiss Spidey's black costume on Emma's "bad memory":
Elektra leaves part of her essence in Garrett (Elektra: Assassin 8) > Elektra dies (DD 181) > The Hand tries to revive Elektra, DD cleans her soul, she's resurrected by Stone and joins the Chaste in a white costume (DD 190) > Erynys gets the Elektra essence from Garrett (DD 323) > she acts as assassin for Kingpin leaving no witnesses and involves Emma Frost into disappearing Isabelle to set her up (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2) > Elektra in white costume recovers her essence (and some related memories) from Erynys (DD 325) > "wanting forgiveness" she tracks down Isabelle and trains her (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2)
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Jason Doty »

This leaves the following scenario if, like me, you don't want to dismiss Spidey's black costume on Emma's "bad memory":
Elektra leaves part of her essence in Garrett (Elektra: Assassin 8) > Elektra dies (DD 181) > The Hand tries to revive Elektra, DD cleans her soul, she's resurrected by Stone and joins the Chaste in a white costume (DD 190) > Erynys gets the Elektra essence from Garrett (DD 323) > she acts as assassin for Kingpin leaving no witnesses and involves Emma Frost into disappearing Isabelle to set her up (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2) > Elektra in white costume recovers her essence (and some related memories) from Erynys (DD 325) > "wanting forgiveness" she tracks down Isabelle and trains her (DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2)
Nice work. :thumbsup:

But looking at DD 190 again, Just move Elektra's Epilogue

DD 190 (1 - 3)-FB Elektra joins the Chaste
DD 190 (4 - 5)-FB a year later, told to leave
DD 190 (6 - 7)-FB returns to Japan
DD 190 (8 - 12)-FB Elektra recruited by the Hand

-----

DD 190 (13-34) Elektra Resurrected
Devil's Reign: X-Men #2-FB
Devil's Reign: X-Men #3-FB
DD 190 (35-38) Elektra returns to the Chaste to prove herself worthy and be cleansed
DD 322
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Jason Doty »

Another thing I noticed is Kingpin knew the whereabouts were Elektra was going to be resurrected (So no problem that he or any of his men know she is alive), after Stone realized she was clean, he took off letting her make her own choices, that would leave an opening for Kingpin's men to collect her. In the epilogue it does not say how much time has passed before she comes to the Chaste again. Leaves a nice opening for Elektra stories where her exploits are not public.
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Clive_Reston »

Jason Doty wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:20 pm But looking at DD 190 again, Just move Elektra's Epilogue
Hmm. That seems to contradict what we're seeing in DD 190 (as well as thematically undermining it). Look at pg. 33: Stone is about to behead Elektra, when he discovers that "she is clean": Matt has purged her of her evil. In her epilogue, she's not returning to the Chaste to be cleansed, she's returning to the Chaste because she's been cleansed (and the fact that she hadn't been, previously, is why they kicked her out in the first place; see pg. 7). And her narration in the epilogue starts with "he must never know"--i.e. Matt can't know that she's alive again. In short, Elektra's not gonna immediately go back to killing people for the Kingpin after becoming "clean."
Jason Doty wrote: 4. And Emma and Elektra didn't know each other anyway. We have no background that would even establish that Emma knew who Elektra was or that she would know an Elektra had died.
Retroactively introducing that relationship is partly the point of the new miniseries! But Marauders #22 also established that Emma had been working for the Kingpin for a while by the time of the Miller/Janson Daredevil (and even had Janson drawing the flashback), so she would certainly have known what was up with her boss's chief assassin.

There is still a limited time frame when Elektra would have been working for Fisk. He recruits her at the end of DD 178. DD 179 and 180 are separated by only a few weeks, but by 180 "all these months" have gone by since DD 171; DD 181 is probably not more than a few days after 180 (at the end of which Fisk tells her to kill Foggy Nelson). So there can be a substantial break between DD 178 and 179 during which the flashbacks in Devil's Reign: X-Men 2-3 happen. (Elektra trains Isabelle for a while one summer, then "ghosts" her--because she's been killed.)
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Jason Doty »

Clive wrote
Hmm. That seems to contradict what we're seeing in DD 190 (as well as thematically undermining it). Look at pg. 33: Stone is about to behead Elektra, when he discovers that "she is clean": Matt has purged her of her evil. In her epilogue, she's not returning to the Chaste to be cleansed, she's returning to the Chaste because she's been cleansed (and the fact that she hadn't been, previously, is why they kicked her out in the first place; see pg. 7). And her narration in the epilogue starts with "he must never know"--i.e. Matt can't know that she's alive again. In short, Elektra's not gonna immediately go back to killing people for the Kingpin after becoming "clean."
Yes, Stone is about to kill her and senses she is now clean and doesn't kill her. (We do not see him take her, but they both disappear at the end, Elektra still in Red with hair)

New evidence, shows that Elektra, operating for the Kingpin, gets help to save a little girl from Emma Frost, who is also operating for the Kingpin and a black costumed Spider-Man appears. (Red costume with hair)
Elektra then trains the girl for a whole summer. (Red costume with hair, *note this FB doesn't have anything to do with Emma Frost thinking of going to retrieve the young girl, but Genosha happened)

Epilogue, Elektra on her own returns to the Chaste and climbs the mountain she failed at the beginning. (Now in white with hair). The he must never know line, could be attributed to the fact that she once again fell and does not want to involve him. Her cleansing becoming her own endeavor.

I don't think that thematically ruins anything (but I do agree that new evidence makes us have to slightly reinterpret that scene from what Frank Miller originally intended, also I don't think he ever wanted Marvel to use Elektra again, but that ship has sailed).

My solution allows for Elektra to be alive, work for the Kingpin, meet Emma Frost, have a run in with a black costumed Spider-Man, train a little girl for the summer, then return to the Chaste and then have the Fall from Grace story line happen without creating my own back story keeping all three story lines as presented without explanation.
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Leoparis »

Clive's objection is valid. The cleansing of Elektra occurs on the publication date of DD 190 since it's DD doing it.

Her joining the Chaste can indeed happen anytime later like Jason proposes.

The problem is Elektra returning to assassin work after she's been cleansed. And not just killing henchmen but witnesses. Given the number of people we see her killing, she could not be clean enough to join the Chaste later on.

It comes down to what you're willing to squint on:

Spidey's black costume. (Col Fury & Clive)

Only a cleansed Elektra could join the Chaste. (Jason)

Real Elektra in issue 2. (Leoparis)

I thought I had a rather consensual proposal with Elektra trying to atone for the murders committed by the part of her soul in Erynys (it is Elektra in #3 but it wasn't really her in #2) but I failed to convince anyone. If nobody is willing to come to my side, I'm willing to adopt Jason's solution under the proviso that Elektra takes other unseen actions to cleanse her soul (like we see her helping Isabelle) between #2 and #3.

(The colors used for the prologue and epilogue of DD 190 make me wonder whether the early pages were a false flashback, i.e. we are led to believe it's a flashback but the last pages reveal it's her present attempt we've seen.)
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Clive_Reston »

Thank you, Leoparis!
Leoparis wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:53 am (The colors used for the prologue and epilogue of DD 190 make me wonder whether the early pages were a false flashback, i.e. we are led to believe it's a flashback but the last pages reveal it's her present attempt we've seen.)
Nope nope. On pp. 2-3, we see her climbing the wall, falling off, landing in the snow, and being found by Stone. On pg. 4, he says that she "...failed the climb, Stick. We should not have brought her here." In the final scene, she climbs again, is about to fall, catches herself, and makes it to the summit on her own. They are distinctly different events.
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by StrayLamb »

Clive_Reston wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:37 pmThere is still a limited time frame when Elektra would have been working for Fisk. He recruits her at the end of DD 178. DD 179 and 180 are separated by only a few weeks, but by 180 "all these months" have gone by since DD 171; DD 181 is probably not more than a few days after 180 (at the end of which Fisk tells her to kill Foggy Nelson). So there can be a substantial break between DD 178 and 179 during which the flashbacks in Devil's Reign: X-Men 2-3 happen. (Elektra trains Isabelle for a while one summer, then "ghosts" her--because she's been killed.)
I believe everybody's ideas here have merit, but Clive_Reston's solution here seems to be the best overall fit, so i'm in support of this view of events, and adding my name to the belief that Emma has misremembered Spidey's costume. My timeline has DD 178 in the late Summer, DD 179 in September, and DD 180-181 in October. The current break between DD 178 & 179 isn't currently substantial, but does give Elektra time to train Isabelle for at least a few weeks during the late summer.
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Jason Doty »

I really don't follow how we as a group are placing things were we want them to fit vs. how they are actually presented in the story itself.

Hurdles in the FB

Is it Elektra and is she alive? Yes, after being resurrected in DD 190 (13-34).
Could she work for the Kingpin? Yes, He tipped off Daredevil to where the event would be happening, and his men also there.
Was Elektra "cleansed" by Daredevil's faith during the resurrection ritual? Yes, as confirmed by Stone
Was Elektra taken by Stone? We don't know.
Would Elektra work for the Kingpin after being cleansed ? We don't know. (but current evidence suggests Yes)

New evidence in the form of the FB's in Devil's Reign: X-Men

Is Elektra working for Kingpin? Yes (As to the why, unknown, but obviously questioning what she is doing by intervening based on her conscience)
Did Elektra and Emma Frost have a run in with a black clad Spider-Man? Yes (as presented)
Did Elektra spend a whole summer training the little girl they saved? Yes (as presented)

Did Elektra return to the Chaste? Yes, presented as an epilogue with no time frame given DD 190 (35-38)

Nothing has been added to what was presented as evidence, there is nothing that needs to be contrived to shoe-horn this into a spot that does not fit all the clues as presented.

I'm at a loss, to the objections over this.
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Russ Chappell »

Jason Doty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:08 am I really don't follow how we as a group are placing things were we want them to fit vs. how they are actually presented in the story itself.
I'm not quite sure where we stand at the moment. Some folks seem to have adjusted their arguments, as new evidence arises (which, to be fair, is the way it should work). I'm a little unclear on your current stance, so please clarify.

Are you still maintaining that "Elektra" is not actually Elektra, but someone else?
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Jason Doty »

I'm a little unclear on your current stance, so please clarify.
Sorry, my stance is that "art error, hallucination, or anything that has to be annotated with a reason for future conversation in placement." should be a last resort in adding to a characters chronology, not the first.

We should exhaust all possibilities, as the book shows, before using those types of moves.

The Marvel Universe is a shared endeavor, by writers and artists, that is expanded upon weekly. As fans of this form of entertainment and a love for our passion for ordering their adventures, WE should make every effort to accommodate their adventures as depicted.

So, Elektra is alive, Elektra is working for Kingpin, and Spider-Man was wearing his black costume. If we can't find a solution, then you go to the error part as a last resort. I've offered a solution that addressed all of those, but it appears to me \that the consensus is aiming for art error, or only agree if something else comes out. Sometimes, its just frustrating. :aargh:
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Col_Fury »

Jason Doty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:17 pmSorry, my stance is that "art error, hallucination, or anything that has to be annotated with a reason for future conversation in placement." should be a last resort in adding to a characters chronology, not the first.

We should exhaust all possibilities, as the book shows, before using those types of moves.
I agree, art error etc. should be a last resort. Another last resort is "that isn't really the character, but rather this other character instead." Or, "alive when they shouldn't be."

It is frustrating when mistakes like this happen, but thankfully they're fairly rare.

Elektra works for Kingpin -> Elektra dies -> Elektra resurrected and cleansed -> cleansed Elektra joins the Chaste -> Spider-Man gets the black suit

There is no point where Elektra is killing people for the Kingpin and Spider-Man has the black suit. "Cleansed Elektra" means she's not killing people anymore. She can't go killing people after her resurrection, because she later joins the Chaste, which means she hasn't been killing people. This flashback shows her killing people for the Kingpin.

So what's more important? Elektra being alive and killing people at a time when she can't be, or Spider-Man's clothes?
Or, what's more important, that's not really Elektra but rather this other character disguised as Elektra, or Spider-Man's clothes?

Basically, we're down to last resorts. Which last resort is more palatable?

Again, I'm with you. It's frustrating when things like this happen. *doh*
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Jason Doty »

Fury, This is where we majorly disagree.

You seem, in my opinion only, to make these absolutes that somehow can't be moved. I say this not as an insult, but with the greatest respect for all that you have contributed to this great body of work over the years. (We seem to look at things differently)
Elektra works for Kingpin -> Elektra dies -> Elektra resurrected and cleansed -> cleansed Elektra joins the Chaste -> Spider-Man gets the black suit
.'

I look at this as the starting point.

Elektra works for Kingpin -agreed
Elektra dies- agreed
Elektra resurrected and cleansed -agreed
There is no point where Elektra is killing people for the Kingpin and Spider-Man has the black suit. "Cleansed Elektra" means she's not killing people anymore.
Where does it say this? This is an assumption on your part.

We know she is now clean, does this mean she now does no wrong?
Could she be manipulated by a man with a telepath at his disposal?
Would it make her unclean to be manipulated?
Could "be clean" mean she's not carrying the hatred she had when she died, that fueled her motivations?
Did the Chaste have a problem with killing people or were they concerned with who and by what motivation?
Did we see her leave with Stone or anyone else at the end of the resurrection?

All opened ended.

So this becomes the point where Elektra could be killing people for the Kingpin and Spider-Man has the black suit. (The new evidence, as depicted, whether an editorial mistake or not) is where this would fit, then rejoins the Chaste and being able to conquer the mountain she failed in the beginning with them.

So were we really down to a last resort? My answer is no.

Making absolutes is less important then making openings for a Marvel Universe that continues to play out and expand.
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 2-3 flashbacks

Post by Russ Chappell »

Are we truly down to "artist/editorial error," or is "character's faulty memory" still in our arsenal?
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Re: Elektra in Devil's Reign: X-MEN 1-3 flashbacks

Post by Leoparis »

I've weighed all options equally and worked out chronology listings for each. But I won't post all that here as one option proved better than the others and that post is long enough as it is. People got confused when I put several options together and misattributed to Jason ideas that were mine. Jason never proposed to replace Elektra with someone else nor proposed to make a placement when she was dead. He has always had a strong proposal in that he maintained that Elektra was Elektra, the black costume was the black costume and it could take place at a time when Elektra was alive (after her resurrection and before joining the Chaste).

After much reflection and close reading, I'd say Jason's version is the best one. It had a single weakness which others and I pointed, "Why would a cleansed Elektra return to assassin work? How could a cleansed Elektra manage to climb the ice wall in DD 190? How could an assassin Elektra join the Chaste?"

Jason provided explanations, which I find satisfying, and I found another one. He first suggested to move the epilog in DD 190 later in time. Then he pointed that Kingpin uses a telepath who controls people. We even see Emma controlling Nick Fury and She-Hulk.

The Elektra circa DD 174-181 hypothesis has implausibilities of its own.

Elektra works as Kingpin's assassin from DD 174 to 181 (Sep 81-Apr 82), a rather short time. If Devil's Reign 1-2 features Elektra during that period, where is that summer she spends with Isabelle in England in Devil's Reign 3? Elektra going AWOL for the summer to England from her position as Kingpin's assassin and even more to live with a person targeted by the Kingpin is rather unlikely. That very move would endanger Isabelle. Unless it occured after Elektra had left the Kingpin's employ.

And since she left it by dying, after her resurrection, it seems DD 190 would need to be broken for that hypothesis as well (i.e. the fb in #3 would occur after her resurrection). Otherwise we would need to go from 1982 issues to 1994 issues and Isabelle should have significantly aged.

Besides, Elektra's actions in #2 are treasonous toward the Kingpin, she alerts Emma to protect a witness, then kills and maims the assassins sent after Isabelle. Spider-Man is instructed to prevent Elektra from killing them all. So we would have witnesses of Elektra's betrayal (in addition to the sai wounds that would implicate her even if, say, Emma erased the memories of those left alive).

The elements in the flashbacks point to the mid-80s rather than the early 80s.

The angular painted cover with Dazzler (who is not in the story) seems like an homage to mid-80s Sienkiewicz covers (who was cover artist on Dazzler from July 83-Jan 85). On the cover She-Hulk has her Avenger uniform (1982-84) rather than her ragged white clothes from her own series (Feb 1980-Feb 82).

The next issue blurb for #2 mentions the Invisible Woman. Sue Richards only uses the name Invisible Woman from FF 284, Nov 85. She proposes using the Baxter Building as collateral but the building was destroyed in FF 278-279 and the banker shows no surprise. Fortunately Emma does not identify as "Invisible Woman" within the flashback. So the sequence with Emma as Mrs Richards must be somewhere between FF 256 (Jul 83) and 278 (May 85). The scene with She-Hulk takes place in New York so after the end of her own series (Feb 82) where she was in Los Angeles and after she joined the Avengers (from A 222, Jul 1982). The scene with Stark also probably occurs in New York at the start of O'Neil's run (Stark is tempted to drink from IM 166, Jan 1983). The Nick Fury flashback seems to take place during the latter part of Born Again (ca DD 232, Jul 86). The character of Wesley, in the Emma/Elektra fb, was created in Reborn (DD 227-233). In DD 174-190, the Kingpin's right-hand man was Flint.

Even is these scenes are not connected to each other, they all point to the mid-80s.

Emma says to Elektra, "I can't make your boyfriend like you" but in DD 168-190, there is no doubt that Murdock loves her. It's only once Murdock has renewed his relationship with Karen Page that Elektra comes second (cf. EL4 12).

Russ also asked if unreliable memory was an option.

I do not think it is.

The flashback in #1 is not presented as a memory from any particular character. It just starts with the caption "The past" so we are in omniscient narrator mode.

The earlier pages of #2 are presented as Emma's memories as she talks with her lawyer. But the long sequence with Elektra and Spider-Man is not part of them. It starts with a caption "Years ago, at the Hellfire Club."

Emma also clearly sees his original costume when she looks in Peter's memory, which leaves us wondering how could she confuse his costumes at a time when he had never had the black costume yet?

Conclusion
There are answers to every objection leveled so far. Yes, Elektra returning as an assassin after her resurrection undoes Miller's story but Miller's story was undone in more ways than one by Fall From Grace. In DD 319, an assassin from The Hand manages to climb the ice wall. So an assassin Elektra could as well.

It seems Murdock's "cleansing" was only removing the hate from Elektra rather than making her sinless as we supposed.

In that view, in issue #2 Elektra and Emma have a discussion where Elektra points she is the merciful one while Emma is the cruel one. That dialog and her empathy tend to show she is not anymore the ruthless killer she was in DD 174-181.

The sequence then goes: DD 190, Kingpin knows where the Hand is going to resurrect Elektra (page 21), Elektra's hate is cleansed by DD's actions, she's resurrected by Stone (pages 24-34). Kingpin resumes employing her, using the fact that she's believed dead. This might or not involve Emma erasing some of Elektra's memories. Elektra betrays Kingpin by going to Emma to protect Isabelle, she maims and kills the Kingpin's men (Devil's Reign: X-Men #2) and leaves his employ. She goes to England for the summer to teach martial arts to Isabelle (Devil's Reign: X-Men #3), and possibly undertakes similar actions to atone for her past. She attempts and succeeds to climb the ice wall and gets accepted by the Chaste (DD 190 Epilog, page 35-38). She returns in DD 319-321 (currently missing from her chronology) and following where she gets corrupted by the part of her essence that had been left in Garrett and gets cast out from the Chaste.

For the other characters involved, the placement would be after Murdock is with Karen Page (due to Emma's barb) and probably before Kingpin recruits a new assassin to replace the loss of Elektra (Typhoid Mary is the one that readily comes to my mind but any other would do).

Suggested corrections:
ELEKTRA
ELSAGA 3 (22:9 - 22:11)
DD 180
DD 181
*DD 182 add
*DD 190 (1 - 34) break
*DEVIL'S REIGN 1-FB
*DEVIL'S REIGN 2-FB
*DEVIL'S REIGN 3-FB
*DD 190 (35 - 38) break and add
*DD 319-OP add (throwing a sai)
*DD 320 add (hand seizing the sai)
*DD 321-BTS add (attacker of Kenkoy)
DD 322

FROST, EMMA GRACE
NM 57
*DEVIL'S REIGN 2-FB
NM 62

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK
ST2 14
*DEVIL'S REIGN 2-FB (betrayed by Elektra)
ASM 303-BTS
DD 254 (recruits Typhoid Mary)

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
WOSM 38
*DEVIL'S REIGN 2-FB
ASM 298

WESLEY, JAMES
DD 233
*DEVIL'S REIGN 1-FB
*DEVIL'S REIGN 2-FB
AF 77


Other flashbacks (will be worked out later):

FROST, EMMA GRACE

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH (before the deployment of Nuke in DD 232)

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK (offered a drink)

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS (before forgetting to file an exculpatory brief)
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