Cyrus Black, Nighthawk & TTA2 13/2

[StrayLamb]

Cyrus Black currently lists TTA2 13/2 after DS2 34, as per Michael's post of 2010..

Currently, we have Cyrus Black's appearance in TTA2 13/2 placed before DRSTR2 34. However, in Nighthawk's chronology, TTA2 13/2 takes place after DEF 102. In everybody's chronology, DEF 102 takes place after DRSTR2 34. So TTA2 13/2 should be moved after DRSTR2 34 in Cyrus Black's chronology.

What Michael didn't take into account is that acording to an editorial footnote, TTA2 13/2 specifically takes place prior to DS2 34, in which he dies, accounting for Cyrus Black being alive, and Nighthawk being in the wrong costume. It was Nighthawk's listing that was wrong, not Cyrus Black's.

I've addressed Cyrus Black in a previous discussion on Tarot 1-4, but it's appropriate to bring it up here..

In DS2 34, Cyrus Black recounts a previous battle with Dr Strange prior to DEF 6, and prior to ASM@ 2. This flashback is listed in Watoomb’s chronology, but not in Dr Strange’s or Cyrus Black’s.

Dr Strange appears in the first part of the flashback with Cyrus Black and Watoomb. This occurs prior to ASM@ 2, and is said to have taken place years ago, when they were both still apprentices, although that can’t be right, as Strange is shown in his red Cloak of Levitation, which he didn’t get until ST 127. This does indicate that Black and Strange had known each other for some time prior to DEF 6, and may have had unrecorded encounters in the meanwhile.

BLACK, CYRUS
DS2 34 (9)-FB * ADD
DEF 6
TTA2 13/2 * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34 (10)-FB * ADD
DS2 34
TTA2 13/2 * MOVE FROM HERE
NA 53

DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
---
ST 125/2
ST 126/2
ST 127/2
MG:I 1-FB
DS2 34-FB * ADD
UTSM '97
ST 128/2
---

NIGHTHAWK/KYLE RICHMOND
---
DS2 29
DEF 61
DEF 62
DEF 63
DEF 64
DEF 65
DEF 67
DEF 68
DEF 119-FB
TTA2 13/2 * MOVE TO HERE
FF@ 14
---
DEF 100
DEF 101
DEF 102
M/GN 1
SS@ 6-FB
TTA2 13/2 * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 103
DEF 104
---

Nightmare appears in the second part of the flashback..

NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
---
DS2 13
DS2 34-FB * ADD
DS2 32
DS2 33
DS2 34
---

While i’m looking at DS2 34, i notice that it’s set on Midsummer’s Eve. DS2 53/2 is also set on Midsummer’s Eve, earlier in the evening, but it’s placed after DS2 37 for Strange and Clea.

CLEA
---
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
DS2 35
DS2 36
DS2 37
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 119-FB
DS2 38
---

DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
---
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
M/TIO 49
DS2 35
DS2 36
DS2 37
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 119-FB
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
DS2 38
---

[Leoparis]

Depicting Strange with his red Cloak of Levitation when he should be in his earlier blue cape is the commonest of mistakes. I mentioned it for History of the Marvel Universe and MG&DDINO 44. Even when the artist gets it right, a colorist might get it wrong.

The debate between narration and picture is not a new one. I'd rather follow narration unless impossible or impractical.

[Russ Chappell]

The debate between narration and picture is not a new one. I'd rather follow narration unless impossible or impractical.

On the whole, I agree. Leaving aside any examples in flashbacks, where "unreliable narrator" can be a factor, images such as costumes or hair style can provide clues to placement, but where they are mutually exclusive with text, I'm inclined to come down on the side of the written word.

Of course, I'm a writer, so there may be an intrinsic bias...

[StrayLamb]

Well, i'll leave it to one of you to place the DS2 34 (9 - 10) flashbacks based on narration.

[Russ Chappell]

{looks over shoulder}

Are you talking to me? I'm not disputing your placement. I specifically exempted flashbacks in my comment.

[StrayLamb]

That's true, but i felt there was an argument for placing the flashback earlier in Dr Strange's career.

Looking at this again though, i believe that when Cyrus Black speaks of both he and Dr Strange "battling each other like the apprentices they were," he's merely referring to the fact that they were both younger and less experienced than they are now. Black follows up by saying "Though you defeated me, Strange, I later learned my half of the wand was stolen shortly after our contest by the sorcerer Xandu," so their contest was not too long prior to ASM@ 2 (1965). Dr Strange gained the Cloak of Levitation in ST 127 (1964) and this is now DS2 34 (1979), so by the standard used at that time in the comics, before retroactive time-compression became a thing, that was 15 years ago, so i think the art is correct here, and the flashbacks work where i've placed them. Hopefully.

[michel]

StrayLamb, concerning TTA2 13/2, you've put it before DS2 34 (10)-FB, Cyrus Black meeting Nightmare, fine.
For Nighthwak, you've put it after DEF 61-68, but it's in conflict with Nightmare having DS2 34 (10)-FB before DS2 32, because:

Cyrus Black has TTA2 13/2 before DS2 34 (10)-FB
Nightmare has DS2 34 (10)-FB before DS2 32-33
Dr. Strange has DS2 32-33 before A@ 8
Iron Man has A@ 8 before DEF 63
Nighthawk has DEF 61-68 and DEF 119-FB before TTA2 13/2

That can be corrected either by putting DS2 34 (10)-FB between DS2 33 and 34 for Nightmare, or by putting TTA2 13/2 between DS2 29 and DEF 61 for Nighthawk. Nighthawk can't have TTA2 13/2 after DEF 119-FB, because Strange has DEF 119-FB after DS2 34, Cyrus Black death. So TTA2 13/2 can be after DEF 68 for Nighthawk, first option, or before DEF 61, second option, I let you choose the one you prefer.

I also add:

DREAMSTALKER
...
DS2 13
DS2 34 --> CHANGE TO DS2 34-FB
MICRO 29
...

[StrayLamb]

Okay, so let's put DS2 34 (10)-FB between DS2 33 and 34 for Nightmare..

NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
---
DS2 13
DS2 34-FB * MOVE FROM HERE
DS2 32
DS2 33
DS2 34-FB * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
---