Placement of ASM 700/3 (second take) + M/GN 1

[michel]

Paul Bourcier and Michael already tried to place ASM 700/3 in this thread from 2012. ASM 700/3 is currently listed only for Spider-Man and Black Cat, between ASM 226 and 227.

This placement was based on ASM 226-227 being before M/GN 1. But M/GN 1 is splitted in different parts.
Hank Pym appears in M/GN 1 (1 - 32) at a time before he breaks up with Janet in A 212.
But Iron Man appears in M/GN 1 (1 - 32) before M/TU 110, and Spider-Man appears in M/TU 100 before ASM 226-227, and later appears in M/GN 1 (38 - 62).

So we're back to the problem that Paul Bourcier noticed:

We can reconcile the FF and Ant-Man/Wasp easily, but it would be too early for Felicia/Spidey. We can reconcile Felicia/Spidey and FF (with a little squinting) but it's too late for Hank/Jan.

I notice Spider-Man receives an Avengers Alert, so this story may not be so much long ago then we thought.

So where would you put ASM 700/3?

[Michael]

Peter becomes an Avenger in A 316 but he's married to MJ until Brand New Day. And after Brand New Day, first Hank Pym is replaced by a Skrull that seduces Tigra, and then Jan is trapped in the Microverse. Jan returns from the Microverse in A4 34, which we have placed before ASM 694. So you want to assume that the FF's costumes are wrong and this takes place after A4 34? Peter and Felicia did have a "friends with benefits" relationship at various points between Brand New Day and Ock taking over Peter's body. The issue is that the caption says the story takes place "an adorably long time ago" but that's a vague expression.

[michel]

To me, the wrong FF costumes can be attributed to artistic licence.
But if we can't find a time when:
* Peter and Felicia are dating
* Spider-Man is an Avenger
* Hank and Janet are a happy couple
* Felicia is friendly with Reed, Sue, Hank and Janet
then we still can place the story in an alternate universe.
After all, we see Jonah Jameson having a date with a bag of money. The whole story could be Felicia dreaming.
So do we have to come to that?

[Leoparis]

I'd say make it a Black Cat dream such as the ones in ASM 246 (between pages 6 & 7 or panels 4 & 5 page 3). In one of the other dreams you have the Avengers requesting Spider-Man as a member.

Being in the hospital Felicia may not have known about the FF's new costumes or the Pyms' separation.

If you want another try at making it canon, you can consider Ant-Man to be Scott Lang (he's not identified as Pym). Is there a time when Spidey was an Avenger and Scott Lang and Wast were alive? Lang is killed shortly before Spidey joins the Avengers. Lang and Van Dyne return to life in 2012, but by this time the FF have white costumes and shortly thereafter Spider-Man is kicked out of the Avengers.

[Michael]

Truthfully, "Avengers Alert" is vague- it could mean an alert to all Avengers or it could mean- "Spidey. we Avengers are busy fighting Kang. Although you're not officially a member, could you please take care of this giant robot for us?"

[michel]

The police seems more interested in arresting Spider-Man rather than stopping the giant robot, after the "mayor's office has made this arrest a priority". This hints to the period when J. Jonah Jameson was mayor, and could fit with Peter and Felicia back together in ASM 607, but the problem comes with the Wasp, trapped in the Microverse at this time...

Michael, I hear you when you say Spider-Man could not be an active member of the Avengers. But as I said in the first post, ASM 226 is after A 212, so at a time when Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne are not together anymore. Leoparis, you say Ant-Man could be Scott Lang, but Janet calls him "honey."

[Frank]

Hum at first sight the problem seems insoluble Michel. I looked at it yesterday and my faith... No matter how you approach the problem there is always a problem of continuity for one of the characters. The author still wanted to write a story without taking the time to check the chronology of the characters in relation to each other at a certain moment in the general continuity...

[Michael]

Hold on a second. Why was M/GN 1 moved after A 218 in Hank and Jan's chronology? That makes no sense. Hank hits Jan in A 213, we find out that they're divorced in A 217 and Hank is framed for kidnapping and Adamantium theft in that issue. He stays in jail until A 230. Hank should be in jail at this point. Even if they let him out to attend the funeral. why would the authorities allow him to wear his costume? Even worse, the Avengers think Hank is lying when he claims that Egghead framed him until A 229. They even have Tony build a device to see if maybe Hank was mind-controlled. But Xavier. Strange and Moondragon are all present in M/GN 1. They could have just read Hank's mind and found out the truth. And Jan is holding Hank's arm when they enter and Hank has his arm around Jan when Marvel passes. And in A 219, Moondragon acts like this is the first time she's seen Jan since the divorce. M/GN 1 is clearly meant to take place before Hank and Jan split up.

[michel]

As I said, M/GN 1 is splitted in several parts. Yellowjacket appears in M/GN 1 (1 - 32) working on a cure with the Avengers before A 212. But M/GN 1 (37:6 - 62) is indeed placed after A 227. Since the Search doesn't work for "M/GN 1" it's hard to track the previous changes.

[Michael]

I see- this was an attempt to solve the problems with Medusa being the Emplate's prisoner. Also, trying to solve the problems caused by placing M/GN 1 after Nighthawk's seeming death in DEF 106 by placing M/GN 1 between DEF 109 and DEF 111 is just ridiculous, since DEF 109 ends with half the Defenders on the Squadron Supreme's world, which has been taken over by Overmind and Null and in DEF 111, they're still on the Squadron Supreme's world, which is still controlled by Overmind and Null. The Defenders- they'll gladly liberate your planet, as long as they don't have a funeral to go to first.
Michel, all my criticisms apply to Hank and Jan's appearances in M/GN 1(37:6-62).
And just to make things even more confusing, DEF 109 takes place after Null's appearance in GR2 71 but we have M/GN 1 (37:6-62) placed between GR2 62 and 63.

[Michael]

Ok I finally figured out what's wrong with M/GN 1.It started when StrayLamb suggested some revisions for 1981-1982:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17104
He proposed splitting M/GN 1 into four sections and moving the last one after DEF 107 because of a footnote in SS3 14. The story explains how Bartak impersonated the Surfer during M/GN 1 and then the footnote says "“the next time the Silver Surfer was seen again on Earth was in Avengers Annual 11, when he was transported to Defenders HQ by a cosmic being, and the heroes assumed he’d been brought from space.” StrayLamb reasoned that since the Surfer appeared in DEF 107, M/GN 1 had to take place after DEF 107.
StrayLamb's summation of the footnote is correct but the problem is that Englehart apparently didn't read Defenders carefully when he wrote that footnote. Kyle Richmond seemingly dies in DEF 106, his funeral is in DEF 107 and the Surfer appears, in DEF 109 Strange, the Hulk and Namor are transported to the Squadron Supreme's world where they meet Kyle (actually the Squadron Supreme's Kyle with the 616-Kyle's memories). Avengers Annual 11 takes place between DEF 111 and DEF 112. in DEF 112, Gargoyle offers a toast to the memory of Kyle and notes that he hasn't seen Strange since issue 109.
The problem is this- Gargoyle, Strange, Hulk, Kyle and Namor all attend Marvel's funeral in the last part of M/GN 1. StrayLamb apparently tried to solve this problem by placing M/GN 1 in between DEF 109 and DEF 111 and assuming that it was Squadron Kyle with 616-Kyle's memories but that makes no sense considering Gargoyle's reaction in DEF 112. It seems that Englehart missed the Surfer's appearance in DEF 107 (his last appearance in Defenders prior to that was in DEF 101). I highly doubt that Englehart intended Strange and co. to be going to a funeral in the middle of stopping world-conquerers.
That footnote can't stand.

[michel]

You're making sense. Let's wait to have StrayLamb's POV, but I agree with him that M/GN 1 should be split to cover a large period of time. If the last part has to happen before A 212, then let's see if the previous parts can be put earlier.

[Frank]

There is another possibility that has not be mentionned before.What if the problem was solved beforehand instead of trying to solve this one afterwards. Is it really impossible to be able to move the Contest of Champions and the MGN 1 in the continuity of each Defender between number 100 and number 101? The characters are all together, apart from the note at the start of 101 there is no explicit indication that the reunion at the start of 101 happens right after the fight in number 100. There could be a longer time break and see these stories there? That could settle all these concerns of continuity encountered with nighthawk and the devil slayer...

[StrayLamb]

You're making sense. Let's wait to have StrayLamb's POV, but I agree with him that M/GN 1 should be split to cover a large period of time. If the last part has to happen before A 212, then let's see if the previous parts can be put earlier.

Working on it - watch this space.

[Michael]

Just one more piece of data regarding M/GN 1. In A 219, we have this dialogue between Wasp and Moondragon:
Jan: Moondragon, you probably haven't heard that I--
Moondragon: You are the Avengers' newly-elected leader!Yes, I know, dear Janet!
That seems to indicate that this is the first time Jan and Heather have interacted since Jan became leader in A 217. M/GN 1 should be placed before A 217, if possible.