S&L 3 and the Hulk's cave

[Leoparis]

S&L 3 is from 1998 and there is nothing placing it in 1971 between IH2 139 & A 88 or IH2 144 & 145 (where he's in central Europe!).

In this story by Roger Stern, Banner is in his southwest bunker under a lake, which gets flooded by story's end when Hulk smashes the rock. But the bunker is unflooded in HMAG 15 (Jun 79). In addition Banner says "it seems like a lifetime" since he was in these caves. He was in them in Captain Marvel 21, Aug 1970, hardly a lifetime separating this from Hulk 139, May 1971.

The cave keeps reappearing after it got flooded so we must assume only that one chamber got flooded. We only need a time with the classic Banner/Hulk combo a lifetime away after the last appearance of the cave. Preferably during Stern's original run on Hulk (Dec 77-Feb 80) or close to the publishing date (1998).
I used the Marvel fandom site to track the cave's appearances but its list was not complete as CM 21 & Hulk magazine 15 were missing from it:
TTA 69-72, 77-78 / CM 21 / HMAG! 15 / IH2 271, 273, 275 / 329, 331-333 / 400 (fb only) / 468 /H2 13, 19-20, FOH:RH 1-3 / IHS 614, 616

We have a long gap between TTA 78 and Hulk! 15 but as Hulk! 15 includes a mention that it was a long time since he was there we cannot have S&L 3 close to HMAG 15.

There is another long gap between 333 and 468 (Sept 1998). The latter fits the publication date and the continuity of Banner coming to the cave to set it up for use in IH2 468.

HULK/BRUCE BANNER
IH2 144 Latveria
**S&L 3 Banner in his southwest bunker, flooded but bunker in HMAG 15 MOVE FROM HERE
M/FEA 1 New England Point Promontory (MOVED FROM HERE in another post)
H 145 Central Europe
...
XM/IH '98
**S&L 3 MOVE HERE
IH2 468

[Somebody]

(NB: Truncated version of viewtopic.php?p=67371#p67371, visit Wizard's Hulk 1/2 Issue thread for full post)

Shadows & Light #3, story 1 [S&L 3]: Banner is searching for equipment in his old lab from the first volume of IH, but it's all "wrecked and rusting... useless". There are no specific references to any "recent" events, only IH v1 and the very early Avengers - notably, Betty's death isn't mentioned, nor is he suicidal as he is during the bulk of IH2 467-FB. When a cave-in seals him in, he considers trying to die rather than "let the Hulk out", but decides he "can't let it end this way! I can't! I won't!" Once out, Hulk talks "normally" at first in that he uses pronouns, but as the air runs out, he uses pronouns less, saying "the Hulk" rather than "I" or "me". Once he breaks through to the lake above and makes it to the surface, he reverts and Banner thinks "The Hulk has been the bane of my existence... but I owe the big brute my life. Again." [The preface has Roger Stern, the writer, describe it as an attempt to "compress the entire Banner/Hulk conflict down to 8 pages."]

IH2 468: Banner's in his old Hulk-prison room (yes, the one destroyed in S&L 3...). Rick comes to find him, opening the functional electronic door, bringing a change of clothes and pair of glasses. He references IH2 467 (12&13:1:6 - 16&17:6), and says he "actually believed Bruce" about love being what was important in lie, but just finds him "coming down here to freak out". Rick arranges for Bruce to get onto the former Area 102, now "the new Hulkbuster base" in disguise (blond & bearded, he remains bearded in some form until the 474 epilogue) with fake ID to use the equipment to find out if he was responsible for Betty's death or not. He thanks Rick for giving him a reason to go on. On the base, he finds out it wasn't his blood that poisoned her, but not who did, transforming before he finds out and destroying the samples. The Hulk is not heard to talk in any way (this continues until #472, when he speaks normally), although makes sure not to kill anyone and does not apparently rage out of control.
[...]

If Shadows & Light #3 is in this period, it must take place after IH2 468 owing to Banner's old base being in usable condition in the latter, despite being destroyed in the former. (His lack of reference to Betty's death in the context of his displeasure at the Hulk is at most circumstantial evidence, but is still worthy of note.) Banner being clean-shaven essentially means pushes it further to after IH2 474

[Leoparis]

One important fact you omitted from S&L 3 is that Banner mentions that it's been a very long time since he was in those caves.

That is why I moved it from 1971 to 1998 before IH2 468.

Either the flood was temporary, either Banner prepared an adjacent cave after the flood of that one cave.

I realize this is a rough transition but it makes more sense to have Banner exploring the caves in order to set it up for IH2 468 than backward. It also matches publication dates.

S&L 3 Jul 1998
IH2 468 Sep 1998
IH2 474 Mar 99

[Somebody]

One important fact you omitted from S&L 3 is that Banner mentions that it's been a very long time since he was in those caves.

That is why I moved it from 1971 to 1998 before IH2 468.

Either the flood was temporary, either Banner prepared an adjacent cave after the flood of that one cave.

I realize this is a rough transition but it makes more sense to have Banner exploring the caves in order to set it up for IH2 468 than backward. It also matches publication dates.

S&L 3 Jul 1998
IH2 468 Sep 1998
IH2 474 Mar 99

Honestly? If we're going to assume the cave was fixed, I'd rather kick it back to 1971 than leave it where it is. The story is intentionally written as an "evergreen" story, with a generic status quo - the whole miniseries (and the one-shot that preceded it) is a Marvel take on Batman: Black & White, stories written to make statements on the characters without trying to fit into the continuity of the day (it's notable that the only specific continuity references are to the 1960s!). At the point it's currently placed, well... besides anything else Banner is more consumed with self-hatred after Betty's death, whereas the story is a generic "I hate the Hulk... but I need him" piece.

Besides, "it seems like a lifetime" is the most generic of lines. Given everything that happens between IH2 468 and IH2 474 (discovering he's not responsible for Betty's death, the Ultimate Machine thing, confronting the Abomination and making peace with Ross), even a short time could "seem like a lifetime." Don't be too literal with these things.

(Really, the only reason I'm not pushing for it to go back to 1971 after double-checking is the Hulk's pronoun usage... I'm ignoring his speech patterns for #½ because the other evidence is so strong, which doesn't apply to this story. It would have to go somewhere more like the first half of the TTA run or earlier to be early enough to precede "Hulk Smash"itude, which would be before "his secret became public"...)

[Leoparis]

If we're going to assume the cave was fixed, I'd rather kick it back to 1971 than leave it where it is.

Like I said 1971 is hardly a lifetime since the time he was in an operational cave.

He was in them in Captain Marvel 21, Aug 1970, hardly a lifetime separating this from Hulk 139, May 1971.

The story is intentionally written as an "evergreen" story, with a generic status quo - the whole miniseries (and the one-shot that preceded it) is a Marvel take on Batman: Black & White, stories written to make statements on the characters without trying to fit into the continuity of the day (it's notable that the only specific continuity references are to the 1960s!). At the point it's currently placed, well... besides anything else Banner is more consumed with self-hatred after Betty's death, whereas the story is a generic "I hate the Hulk... but I need him" piece.

It isn't so generic as 1. it takes place a long time after the cave was last in use and 2. it destroys the cell chamber (but this gets ignored by the writers who use it afterwards, hence my ignoring it too).

Besides, "it seems like a lifetime" is the most generic of lines. Given everything that happens between IH2 468 and IH2 474 (discovering he's not responsible for Betty's death, the Ultimate Machine thing, confronting the Abomination and making peace with Ross), even a short time could "seem like a lifetime." Don't be too literal with these things.

But combined with the next paragraph "I'd hope to find some equipment worth salvaging... It's all wrecked and rusty... useless." we can only conclude that it has been a long time since he was in these caves. A figure of speech cannot make equipment all wrecked and rusty.

So we're back at tracking the appearances of the cave to find a large gap. The gap before HMAG 15 (June 79, nine years since 1970) is already covered when Banner comes on the scene and states, "It's in shambles--worse than I remembered--nothing but rubble and twisted wreckage--almost completely demolished." So I used the IH2 333-468 gap (11 years). Converted into Marvel time this is just a couple years, which is short for everything to get wrecked and for it to be a lifetime ago. So we're far from being literal with the use of that expression.

Now, if you want to place S&L 3 after the last appearance of the locking chamber (on account that it gets destroyed), you're going to have to place S&L 3 much later than it was published.

I have no rule on anthology stories and will even place them later than their publication date if that's the best option.

The cave reappears under Loeb's run, then Pak, Parker, etc. It could be you will keep placing it later and later into the future. In Hulk 614/2 (Dec 2010) Banner says even the Hulk could not break that chamber (this should be earlier than S&L 3 then since it got broken there). Red She-Hulk 66 (Aug 2013) is the current "last time" we saw that chamber. If we want to pay attention to that detail, hoping it never gets used again, S&L 3 should be placed a long time after Red She Hulk 66, say after Immortal Hulk 50.

We can wait until Immortal Hulk 50 is reached in the indexing to see if by then the chamber reappeared or not.

Or we settle on the fact that Banner must have set up the long-in-disuse cave prior to IH2 468.

Appearances of the cave after IH2 468 (and 474)
Hulk 13 Oct 2009
Fall of the Hulks: Gamma 1 Feb 2010
HUlk 19 Mar 2010
Fall of the Hulks: Red Hulk Vol 1 1 Mar 2010
Hulk 20 Apr 2010
Fall of the Hulks: Red Hulk Vol 1 2 Apr 2010
Fall of the Hulks: Red Hulk Vol 1 3 May 2010
Incredible Hulks Vol 1 614 Dec 2010
Incredible Hulks Vol 1 616 Jan 2011
Red She-Hulk Vol 1 66 Aug 2013