Avengers 4 - Listings to adjust

[RobinHoodMtl]

In main characters for this issue, the listings has a few errors, particularly when it comes to Off-Panel appearances where OP appears when a character is present and vice-versa.

I won't break the whole book down as I did with Avengers 1 (takes an awful lot of time, ya know!), but here is what the listings should look like:

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/...
JIM 112-FB
A 3 (22:3 - 25)
A 4 (2:1) (add here if not retelling)
JIM 99
[...]
A 4 (4:1)
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
A 4 (4:3 - 4:4)
MA 20-FB
A 4 (4:5)
CA:WHITE 1 (1)-OP
A 4 (4:6)-OP (modify)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
A 4 (5:1)-OP
CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
A 4 (5:2)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)-OP
CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (8:2 - 8:3)
CONSPIRACY 1-FB
A 4 (8:4 - 9:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (18:1 - 18:2)
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK/"RICHARD FRANCO"
A 3 (13 - 25)
A 4 (2:1 - 2:4) (remove if retell, or modify - 2:2-2:4 are about Subby)
AC 3/2
[...]
A 4 (4:1)
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
A 4 (4:3 - 4:4)
MA 20-FB
A 4 (4:5)
CA:WHITE 1 (1)-VO
A 4 (4:6)-OP (modify)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
A 4 (5:1)-OP (modify)
CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
A 4 (5:2)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)-OP
A 4 (8:2 - 8:3)
CONSPIRACY 1-FB
A 4 (9:4 - 9:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (18:1 - 18:2)
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 8)
A 4 (16 - 23)

GIANT-MAN/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
A 3 (13 - 25)
A 4 (2:1 - 2:4) (remove if retell, or modify - 2:2-2:4 are about Subby)
AC 3/2
[...]
A 4 (4:1)
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
A 4 (4:2 - 4:4)
MA 20 (1:1)-FB
A 4 (4:5)
CA:WHITE 1 (1)-VO
MA 20 (1:2 - 4)-FB
A 4 (4:6)-OP (modify)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16:3)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
A 4 (5:1)-OP
CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
A 4 (5:2)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)-OP (modify)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)-OP
CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (8:2 - 8:3)
CONSPIRACY 1 (8:1)-FB
A 4 (8:4 - 9:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (18:1 - 18:2)
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
A 3 (13 - 25)
A 4 (2:1)-OP (remove line if retell, or modify)
TTA 51/3
[...]
A 4 (4:3 - 4:4)
MA 20 (1:1)-FB
A 4 (4:5)-OP (add)
CA4 13 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB
CA:WHITE 1 (1)-VO
MA 20 (1:2 - 4)-FB
A 4 (4:6)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
A 4 (5:1)-OP (modify - she's there)
CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
A 4 (5:2)-OP (modify, she's not)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)-OP
CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (8:2 - 8:3)
CONSPIRACY 1-FB
A 4 (8:4 - 9:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (18:1 - 18:2)
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
*** Flashbacks were OK ***
A 4 (2:5 - 2:7)
CA:REBORN 3 (1 - 3)
A 4 (3:1)
CA:REBORN 3 (4 - 7)
A 4 (3:2)
FSON:IM (13)-FB
CA:REBORN 3 (8&9:1)
A 4 (3:3 - 3:8)
CA:RW&B /10 (6)
A:EMH 1 (22:7 - 23)
A 4 (4:1)
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
A 4 (4:2)
CA4 13 (15:1)-FB
A 4 (4:3 - 4:4)
MA 20 (1:1)-FB
CA4 13 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB
A 4 (4:5)-OP (modify - technically, not BTS)
CA:WHITE 1 (1)
MA 20 (1:2 - 4)-FB
A 4 (4:6)
CA4 13 (16:1 - 16:2)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16:3)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
A 4 (5:1)
CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
A 4 (5:2)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (9:2)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:6 - 17:7)
A 4 (9:3)
CA:MOOT 1 (18:1 - 18:2)
A 4 (9:4 - 10:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (18:3 - 23)
CA:MOOT 2 (1 - 12)
A 4 (10:2 - 11:2)
CA:MOOT 2 (13:1 - 13:4)
A 4 (11:3 - 11:5)
CA:MOOT 2 (13:5)
A 4 (11:6 - 11:7)
CA:MOOT 2 (14)
CA:MOOT 2-FB
CA:MOOT 2 (15 - 16)
A 4 (12:4 - 12:6)
CA:MOOT 2 (17)
A 4 (12:7 - 13:4)
CA:MOOT 2 (18 - 19:1)
A 4 (13:5)
CA:MOOT 2 (19:2 - 19:3)
A 4 (14:1)
CA:MOOT 2 (19:4 - 21)
A 4 (14:2 - 15:1)
CA:MOOT 2 (22)
A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) (modify - 15:3-15:4 are only about Subby)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
A 4 (10:4 - 11:2) (modify)
CA:MOOT 2 (13:1 - 13:4)
A 4 (11:3 - 11:5)
CA:MOOT 2 (13:5)
A 4 (11:6 - 11:7)
A 4 (12:1 - 12:3)-BTS (add)
CA:MOOT 2 (14 - 22)
A 4 (15:2) (add)
A:EMH 2 (9 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

Note that I only checked the A 4 lines, not the issues in between. Listings for the Sub-Mariner, Baron Zemo and Vuk were OK.

[michel]

Good job RobinHoodMtl. I'll take the OP/not OP differences. But:

You shouldn't change
A 4 (9:4 - 15)
into
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)

Two contiguous appearances should be merged, even if the character only appear in the last panel of the range.

You also propose:

A 4 (14:2 - 15:1)
CA:MOOT 2 (22)
A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) (modify - 15:3-15:4 are only about Subby)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

Russ just explained the rule to apply here in the second part of this post.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Good job RobinHoodMtl. I'll take the OP/not OP differences. But:

You shouldn't change
A 4 (9:4 - 15)
into
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)

Two contiguous appearances should be merged, even if the character only appear in the last panel of the range.

I have to disagree on this one. I understand Russ's rule about contiguous panels and all, but I think it refers to a same scene, doesn't it? But it is not exactly the case here. Allow me to break it down for you:

A 4 (8:4 - 9:1): The Avengers are turned to stone by VuK. Note that I did not exclude 9:1 even if the Avengers do not appear because it is part of the scene.
[..]
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify): Simultaneous to a long series of scenes where Cap sees the petrified Avengers outside the ship; Cap meets Rick Jones; they investigate and identify the culprit on a photo; the Teen Brigade lends a hand; Cap, by himself, finds Vuk in his hotel room and hears his story; then they leave to fix the Avengers.
A 4 (15:2) (add): Minutes later, they both arrive at the warehouse where Rick is keeping an eye on the petrified Avengers and Vuk turns them back to normal. Different place, different time, different cast, different scene.

If Cap had found Vuk in the warehouse instead of the hotel room, I would have agreed with your point. But here, we have different place, different time, different cast, different scene. Even Cap's listing has it separated by CA:MOOT 2 (22).

On a side note, this is also why I added A 4 (12:1 - 12:3)-BTS in Rick Jones' listing because he's most likely the one who asked the Teen Brigade to help in their search.

You also propose:

A 4 (14:2 - 15:1)
CA:MOOT 2 (22)
A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) (modify - 15:3-15:4 are only about Subby)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

I presume that the A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) line was placed here as a block because those panels occur between sequences from two other books. And the reason why he did not have A 4 (15:2 - 15:6). instead is because you have SAGASUB 8 (19:5 - 19:6)-FB after 15:4. To be consistent with your reasoning, you should have had A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) for Namor too which is not the case.

But I'm bringing the same point here. A 4 (15:3 - 15:4) switch from the warehouse to a totally different scene with Namor by himself in his castle, disappointed that his plan has failed. This is also why there should be a A 4 (8:3-15:2)-BTS for Namor in his listing. Vuk clearly acted at his request and the narrative in A 4 (15:3) implies that he's been monitoring the whole thing with his undersea scanner. And for Vuk, there should be a line A 4 (8:3-9:1)-OP because he was in the crowd when he turned the Avengers to stone, but his listing does not have it. I guess I spoke too fast when I assumed the short listings for he and Subby were OK.

On another matter, do you think someone will be able to check the thread I created about Avengers 1 vs. Avengers: The Origin? I know it's a big one, but there are many adjustments to make and it would be deplorable to waste such a thorough analysis.

[Russ Chappell]

I have to disagree on this one. I understand Russ's rule about contiguous panels and all, but I think it refers to a same scene, doesn't it? But it is not exactly the case here. Allow me to break it down for you:

I'll leave it to michel to address the bulk of your post; just popping in here.

I would caution you not to get hung up on "scenes." Check out this post, paying special attention to the "trickier question" in the second half of the post. The other directors may not follow these same guidelines, but It's what I do.

[RobinHoodMtl]

I would caution you not to get hung up on "scenes." Check out this post, paying special attention to the "trickier question" in the second half of the post. The other directors may not follow these same guidelines, but It's what I do.

Yeah, I read that. From what I understand, the listing are book-based instead of character-based. The cutting of sequences is determined by the timelines in the books, which, if this is the case, is a perfect approach. So for a given event, like he Birth of the Avengers or Captain America joining them, the general sequence alternates from a book to the other following the progression of the story panel to panel. So to illustrate my understanding of your method, let's say that for a given story, three books are telling about the same story, and the series are called A, B and C. And the cutting of all scenes in that story/arc could go something like this:

1. C 10 (1-4)
2. A 1 (1-11)
3. B 7 (1-2:1)
4. C 10 (5-6)
5. B 7 (2:2)
6. C 10 (5-7)
7. B 7 (2:3-10)
8. A 1 (12:1-12-6)
9. B 7 (11-23)
10. B 8
11. A 1 (13-14:3)
12. C 10 (8:1-8:4)
13. B 9
14. C 10 (8:5)
15. A 1 (8:5-22)
16. C 10 (9)

So let's say Girafe Lady is our main character in this arc and appears at least once in each of these items. Listing for Girafe Lady would be the same as the whole listing above. So far so good?

Elephant Man is her partner and appears only in lines 2 and 11, both in book A. I suppose that his listing would not be broken down and would only have A 1?

Monkey Business is their friend. He appears in the same panels as Elephant Man, but also on line 7. Will his listing go as follows?
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (2:3-10)
A 1 (12-22)

The Scribe is an observer who writes chronicles about the whole story after monitoring it from his spaceship. The Scribe first appeared in book C, which was published way after books A and B, therefore he only appears in book C where he comments interviews Girafe Girl on what he saw of her adventure. His listing will also have all of the items in the list, but will all be BTS except for those in book C. Still good?

Mr. Safari is the villain. He appears in lines 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 15. Lines 3, 5, 7 will be merged into B 7 (1-10) in his listing. And even though he only appears in last panel in line 9 and makes a single panel cameo in line 10, I figure that you would list him like this:
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (1-10)
A 1 (12:1-12-6)
B 7 (11-23)
B 8
A 1 (8:5-22)

Still correct?

The Cosmic Editor is the Scribe's boss and only appears during the whole page of line 16. Since he never observed the events and only reads the Scribe's chronicles, his listing would have C 10? Or C 10 (9)?

I understand that cutting the story only when they switch from a book to the other is convenient and much easier that analyzing the panels for each character and that is probably why, if my assumptions are correct, you chose this method. Yet from the characters' perspective, I find it rather simplistic and does not represent their appearances if you do not take into consideration the time gaps or major changes of scenes that may occur in a single line.

My suggestions of the last few days were made on the assumption that the listings were character-based and that the rules you've set could sometimes be adapted under certain circumstances when logic would prevail. But hey, your baby, your rules! If all my scenarii above were correct and this interpretation is the way you work, I'll respect that and do my best to take it into consideration in my next suggestions.

[michel]

Yeah, I read that. From what I understand, the listing are book-based instead of character-based. The cutting of sequences is determined by the timelines in the books, which, if this is the case, is a perfect approach. So for a given event, like he Birth of the Avengers or Captain America joining them, the general sequence alternates from a book to the other following the progression of the story panel to panel.

Yes, that's the case.

So to illustrate my understanding of your method, let's say that for a given story, three books are telling about the same story, and the series are called A, B and C. And the cutting of all scenes in that story/arc could go something like this:

1. C 10 (1-4)
2. A 1 (1-11)
3. B 7 (1-2:1)
4. C 10 (5-6)
5. B 7 (2:2)
6. C 10 (5-7)
7. B 7 (2:3-10)
8. A 1 (12:1-12-6)
9. B 7 (11-23)
10. B 8
11. A 1 (13-14:3)
12. C 10 (8:1-8:4)
13. B 9
14. C 10 (8:5)
15. A 1 (8:5-22)
16. C 10 (9)

So let's say Girafe Lady is our main character in this arc and appears at least once in each of these items. Listing for Girafe Lady would be the same as the whole listing above. So far so good?

No, in your chronological timeline, a single panel can only appear on one line if it's not a FB and time travel isn't involved.
So line 6 should be C 10 (7) and line 15 should be A 1 (14:4 - 22).
You don't mention A 1 (12:7) so line 8 should be A 1 (12).

Elephant Man is her partner and appears only in lines 2 and 11, both in book A. I suppose that his listing would not be broken down and would only have A 1?

Yes

Monkey Business is their friend. He appears in the same panels as Elephant Man, but also on line 7. Will his listing go as follows?
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (2:3-10)
A 1 (12-22)

No, the second line will only be B 7. B 7 only appears once in his listing so there's no need for page breaking.

The Scribe is an observer who writes chronicles about the whole story after monitoring it from his spaceship. The Scribe first appeared in book C, which was published way after books A and B, therefore he only appears in book C where he comments interviews Girafe Girl on what he saw of her adventure. His listing will also have all of the items in the list, but will all be BTS except for those in book C. Still good?

It looks like C 10 has a frame story, the Scribe interviewing Girafe Girl after her adventure, and also has FB intersected with books A and B. If that's right, you should distinct them in your timeline, and exclude FB that are just retellings with no new element.

Mr. Safari is the villain. He appears in lines 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 15. Lines 3, 5, 7 will be merged into B 7 (1-10) in his listing. And even though he only appears in last panel in line 9 and makes a single panel cameo in line 10, I figure that you would list him like this:
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (1-10)
A 1 (12:1-12-6)
B 7 (11-23)
B 8
A 1 (8:5-22)

Still correct?

The last line should be A 1 (13-22). A 1 (8:5-12) shouldn't appear twice.

The Cosmic Editor is the Scribe's boss and only appears during the whole page of line 16. Since he never observed the events and only reads the Scribe's chronicles, his listing would have C 10? Or C 10 (9)?

C 10.

[michel]

On another matter, do you think someone will be able to check the thread I created about Avengers 1 vs. Avengers: The Origin? I know it's a big one, but there are many adjustments to make and it would be deplorable to waste such a thorough analysis.

I can't say I'm looking forward to it ^^ but yes, I'll eventually check it.

[Russ Chappell]

So to illustrate my understanding of your method, let's say that for a given story, three books are telling about the same story, and the series are called A, B and C. And the cutting of all scenes in that story/arc could go something like this:

1. C 10 (1-4)
2. A 1 (1-11)
3. B 7 (1-2:1)
4. C 10 (5-6)
5. B 7 (2:2)
6. C 10 (5-7)
7. B 7 (2:3-10)
8. A 1 (12:1-12-6)
9. B 7 (11-23)
10. B 8
11. A 1 (13-14:3)
12. C 10 (8:1-8:4)
13. B 9
14. C 10 (8:5)
15. A 1 (8:5-22)
16. C 10 (9)

You have some problems in your breakdown. Before we can intelligently discuss your questions and observations, you should correct these:

1. Book C 10: Your line 4 says pages 5-6, and line 6 says pages 5-7.

2. Book A 1: Line 8 says panels 1-6 of page 12. I don't see a panel 7 anywhere, so I assume that page 12 only has 6 panels. If that is the case, line 8 should read "A 1 (12)."

3. Book A 1: Line 15 says (8:5 - 22), but most of these pages are already included in all the previous lines for A 1 (2, 8, 11).

If some of these are flashbacks, then please indicate. You may have mentioned this in your discussion of the breakdown, but your breakdown should reflect that.

[RobinHoodMtl]

You have some problems in your breakdown. Before we can intelligently discuss your questions and observations, you should correct these:

1. Book C 10: Your line 4 says pages 5-6, and line 6 says pages 5-7.

2. Book A 1: Line 8 says panels 1-6 of page 12. I don't see a panel 7 anywhere, so I assume that page 12 only has 6 panels. If that is the case, line 8 should read "A 1 (12)."

3. Book A 1: Line 15 says (8:5 - 22), but most of these pages are already included in all the previous lines for A 1 (2, 8, 11).

If some of these are flashbacks, then please indicate. You may have mentioned this in your discussion of the breakdown, but your breakdown should reflect that.

Rereading my post today, I realize that I was getting really tired when I wrote this! My brains weren't up to the task and I should have just saved it as a draft. Sorry about that!


Anyway, the errors you all pointed out illustrate quite well the way you listings work and should appear. So in a way, my mistakes helped identifying what not to do! Thanks for taking the time to clear that up for me. Now I have a more complete view on how to proceed in my suggestions.

@michel: You might want to wait a few days before you dig in to the Avengers 1 vs. Avengers: The Origin topic. I'll review it in the lights of your instructions and let you know when I'm done.