EMPYRE

[Clive_Reston]

Well, all of "X of Swords" is now out, and it definitely is "these 22 episodes in the stated order, with little or no time for anything else to happen between them." (Also, I enjoyed it immensely.) Though it does raise the question of how to deal with multiple flashbacks that have exactly the same artwork but different narration from unreliable narrators. I suppose that's not entirely different from the "Galactus's origin" problem...

[Midnighter]

I have some problems with the mini of the Power Pack of which the first issue has just come out.
We have seen how Iron Man 2020 predates Empyre, and in Ironheart 2020 we have precise indications that the approval of Kamala's Law, seen in Outlawed, takes place at least during the AI ​​revolt, given that during the miniseries (which apparently will remain digital only) Riri decides not to operate as Ironheart following the law.
But in Power Pack 1 the Power brothers are stopped by the forces of CRADLE who say Kamala's Law is active starting that very night, so it should be contemporary or just after Outlawed.
The problem arises with Fantastic Four 26, which sees the return to Earth of Alex and Julie Power after the Future Fondation series and which is obviously set after Empyre
In Power Pack 1 Alex says he came back from outer space specifically for his parents' anniversary, and Julie talks about her relationship with Rikki, so I would think the mini could be placed in the last pages of Future Fondation 5. But in Fantastic Four 26 the Powers talk about their children's journey as if they had no news from the start. From what they say, it would appear that they haven't seen Alex and Julie since before Franklin and Valeria returned, but Franklin and Valeria are definitely back before Incoming and Outlawed.

[StrayLamb]

Based on a complete reading that follows Clive_Reston's groundwork, i've been able to construct a timeline and do some fine-tuning for EMPYRE.

THE EVE OF THE BATTLE

INCOMING! (81 - 84)
ROAD TO EMPYRE: THE KREE/SKRULL WAR
LoE: EH (30)

LORDS OF EMPYRE: CELESTIAL MESSIAH

EMPYRE: FANTASTIC FOUR 0 (1 - 28)


DAY ONE (PROBABLY APRIL 4 AS SHOWN)

EMPYRE: AVENGERS 0 (1 - 29:3) [This can easily take place during the FF’s return trip]
EMPYRE: FANTASTIC FOUR 0 (29 - 30) ~ EMPYRE: AVENGERS 0 (29:4 - 30)

This section broken up to follow the story as it jumps back and forth between issues:
EMPYRE 1 (1 - 2:2)
FF6 21 (6/7:1-3)
EMPYRE 1 (2:3-6) ~ FF6 21 (6/7:4 - 8:1)
EMPYRE 1 (3:1-3)
FF6 21 (8:2 - 8:5)
EMPYRE 1 (3:4) ~ FF6 21 (9:1)
EMPYRE 1 (3:5 - 7)
EMPYRE 4 (17:2)-FB
EMPYRE 1 (8 - 30) [The War Begins]

This section broken up to follow the story as it jumps back and forth between issues:
EMPYRE 2 (1 - 13)
FF6 21 (9:2 - 20)
EMPYRE 2 (14:1)
FF6 22 (1&2:1 - 1&2:3)
EMPYRE 2 (14:2 - 14:3) ~ FF6 22 (1&2:4)
EMPYRE 2 (14:4)
FF6 22 (1&2:5)
EMPYRE 2 (15 - 20)
FF6 22 (3 - 20)

CM9 18
CM9 19 [Late Afternoon]


[NOTE: I've separated EMPYRE: AVENGERS into its component storylines, which cannot be occurring simultaneously]

EMPYRE: AVENGERS 1 (1 - 2&3:5) [In the Wakandan Helicarrier’s holographic briefing area; about "7 hours" after Empyre 2]
EMPYRE: SAVAGE AVENGERS 1 is the invasion of Mexico City [That Night]


DAY TWO

EMP:X 1 (6 - 22) [A Cotati ship lands in the ruins of Genosha, intending to set up a staging area for a strike on Wakanda][Lunch-Time in Paris; around 6AM NYC]
CM9 20 [The Day After CM9 19]
CM9 21 (1 - 18) (the issue "opens with events preceding EMPYRE #4," per editorial note)

EMPYRE: AVENGERS 1 (12 - 20) [Aboard the Wakandan Helicarrier, Shuri detects an energy surge from the Savage Land; T’Challa has Dr Voodoo teleport to the Savage Land with Ka-Zar, Scarlet Witch and Black Knight][Cap still aboard the Helicarrier]
EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 1 (1 - 17): Cap in Washington, DC
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 2 (1 - 2) [Captain America and his troops are holding the line in Washington DC, and there are reports of Cotati attacks in Caracas, Manila and Yokohama; T’Challa tells Shuri they should return to Wakanda and prepare their defenses]

EMPYRE 3 [Cotati forces are winning against the dead in Genosha, and in the Savage Land. Invasion of Wakanda already under way][Just before Sunset in Wakanda; Late Morning in NYC]
EMP:X 1 (23 - 30)
EMP:X 2
EMP:X 3 (1 - 7)
EMP:X 4 (14:2 - 14:5)-FB [Beast steals some of Opal’s tech for study]
EMP:X 3 (8 - 30)
EMP:X 4 (11-27)

EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 1 (18 - 20) [Near Mexico City, Shi Qaanth uses his powers to create a gigantic Cotati warrior, the Man of Earth][Just before Sunset]
EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 2 (1 - 7) [Cap and his troops hold the line in San Antonio]
EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 2 (8 - 11) [After dark; Cap flies to NATO HQ]


DAY THREE

EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 2 (12 - 19) [Early Hours at NATO HQ]
EMPYRE 4 (1 - 9) [Carol reports they’ve had word from Captain America, and apparently he’s had trouble getting the human forces to pull together. Probably while Cap is at NATO HQ]
EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 2 (20) [Cap and his troops fly alongside a combined NATO fleet of bombers, bound for Mexico City]
EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 3 (1-18) [the Man of Earth disintegrates]
X5 11 (1 - 4) is when Cotati ships attack Krakoa directly
X5 11 -FB (7 - 19:3) is shortly after that (and Magik appears to be showing up at some point after EMP:X)

EMPYRE: AVENGERS 1 (2&3:6 - 4) [Sent by T’Challa, Vision and Dr Nemesis meet up with Luke Cage in Central Park West, where they examine the situation at the reservoir] [T’Challa still on Wakandan Helicarrier]
EMPYRE 4 (10 - 19) [Black Panther and his forces battle the Cotati, who have breached the Wakandan defenses]
EMPYRE 5 (1 - 19:3) [T’Challa is believed to have been killed]
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 1 (5) [In Central Park West, Vision discovers Plantman lurking beneath the surface of the Cotati-infected reservoir]
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 2 (3 - 6) [Central Park]
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 3 (4 - 7) [Vision attempts to give T’Challa an update, but finds that communication is down with Wakada]
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 2 (9 - 20) [Savage Land]
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 3 (1 - 3)
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 3 (11 - 20) [as Wanda reports to T’Challa, Shuri responds, telling her they need help, as she fear’s T’Challa is already dead, and Wakanda is under siege]
EMPYRE: CAPTAIN AMERICA 3 (19 - 20) [big stuff is happening in Wakanda. Supposedly the day after Cap defeated Shi Qaanth, but it’s the day after Cap’s mission to defeat Shi Qaanth began]

FF6 23 (1 - 9) [Late Afternoon to Early Evening]


[NOTE: The next section occurs in rapid sucession over a ten minute period later in the evening]

EMPYRE 5 (19:4 - 20) [Reed Richards tells Tony Stark that a Cotati Death Blossom is flowering in Wakanda, and will reach full activation in about ten minutes, but that the Sun will explode within the next nine minutes]
EMPYRE 6 (1-4)
FF6 23 (10 - 12/13:2)
EMPYRE 6 (5) ~ FF6 23 (12/13:3 - 14)
EMPYRE 6 (6-10)
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 1 (6 - 11) [IQuicksilver, Mockingbird and Wonder Man join up with the Alliance to engage Cotati forces near Navojoa in Mexico]
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 2 (7 - 8)
EMPYRE: AVENGERS 3 (8 - 10) [Just before Sunset on the West Coast, later in the evening in NYC]
FF6 23 (15 - 16/17:1)
EMPYRE 6 (11:1-3) ~ FF6 23 (16/17:2 - 16/17:5)
EMPYRE 6 (11:4 - 12:2)
EMPYRE 6 (12:3 - 12:5) ~ FF6 23 (16/17:5 - 16/17:6)
EMPYRE 6 (13:1)
EMPYRE 6 (13:2 - 13:3) ~ FF6 23 (16/17:7 - 16/17:8)
EMPYRE 6 (13:4 - 13:5)
EMPYRE 6 (13:6 - 14/15:1) ~ FF6 23 (16/17:9)
FF6 23 (18-20)
EMPYRE 6 (14/15:2 - 28)
X5 11 -FB (20:2) --the X-Men dispatch the remaining Cotati forces on the moon, Wolverine is with them after FF6 23

(a break here of maybe a day)


DAY FOUR

EMPYRE 6 (29 - 32)
GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY 6 [Rocket & Nova learn of the war and its outcome]
EMPYRE: FALLOUT FANTASTIC FOUR (1 - 9) is long enough after X5 11 -FB (20:2) for Wolverine to have gone back to earth, gone to Disneyland with the kids, and changed back into his FF costume to be one of the last guests arriving, and is promptly followed by...
EMPYRE: AFTERMATH AVENGERS -FB (10 - 24) --and then, after the festivities, we get...
EMPYRE: FALLOUT FANTASTIC FOUR (10 - 20)
X5 11 (5-20)--the sequence wrapped around the -FB--is "the next day" (after the -FB), as Exodus tells the kids the story of Magneto's victory


DAY FIVE

EMPYRE AFTERMATH: AVENGERS (5:2 - 9)
EMPYRE AFTERMATH: AVENGERS (25 - 28)
EMP:X 4 (28 - 30) is after it's all over

******************************************

WEB OF VENOM: EMPYRE’S END 1 is after the Alliance Fleet has left Earth, and begins the next section

[Leoparis]

What about the unfinished mini-series? Their publication (in unfinished state) in the Empyre Omnibus raises the question. Some episodes are complete, others are in various states from uncolored to cover only. Do we index nothing if only the third issue of a miniseries is unfinished? Or do we index everything that is published, including mere scripts. (I know we don't do covers.)

[Midnighter]

I'd treat them as non canon, they were officially cancelled and printed only as "extras". As unfininshed stories, they are like Daredevil: Target or Iron Man: Viva Las Vegas, not included in MCP.

[Col_Fury]

On the other hand, All-Winners Squad: Band of Heroes is included in the MCP, and it's unfinished (only 5 of 8 issues published).

I think there were a number of problems with Viva Las Vegas to make it non canon, if I remember right. I'm fuzzy on DD: Target, though. Did Bullseye ever appear in other comics with the target carved into his forehead?

Hmn. Interesting question. Santa gave me the Empyre Omnibus; I'll try to take a look at the extras soon-ish.

[StrayLamb]

Hmn. Interesting question. Santa gave me the Empyre Omnibus; I'll try to take a look at the extras soon-ish.

Santa didn't bring me the Empyre Omnibus, so i don't think i'll be getting it.

I'll leave it to Col_Fury or others to add any of the unfinished material if it passes muster. My work here is done..

Although, before i go, i should say that i really enjoyed Empyre, and it all fits together quite nicely. Good job, Marvel. And thanks to Clive_Reston for doing most of the heavy lifting.

[Leoparis]

I'd treat them as non canon, they were officially cancelled and printed only as "extras". As unfininshed stories, they are like Daredevil: Target or Iron Man: Viva Las Vegas, not included in MCP.

DD: Target is in the database as DD:T 1.

On the other hand, All-Winners Squad: Band of Heroes is included in the MCP, and it's unfinished (only 5 of 8 issues published).

I think there were a number of problems with Viva Las Vegas to make it non canon, if I remember right. I'm fuzzy on DD: Target, though. Did Bullseye ever appear in other comics with the target carved into his forehead?

DD2 48 and 49 at least and I think some others.

Maybe we should revisit IM: Viva Las Vegas, now that it has been established that there are Fin Fang Foom tulpas.

[Midnighter]

Ah, I was wrong about Daredevil: Target!
Regarding Iron Man: Viva Las Vegas, if I'm not mistaken it was placed in another universe officially by Marvel, Earth-80734.

[Clive_Reston]

What about the unfinished mini-series? Their publication (in unfinished state) in the Empyre Omnibus raises the question. Some episodes are complete, others are in various states from uncolored to cover only. Do we index nothing if only the third issue of a miniseries is unfinished? Or do we index everything that is published, including mere scripts. (I know we don't do covers.)

I got myself a copy of the Empyre Omnibus, and I'd say at least the two entirely finished (lettered), previously unpublished issues that appear in it should be included, for the same reason we include, say, the extra material from the Avengers: Korvac Saga and Spider-Man: Revelations TPBs. Like--they exist, they're completed episodes, they're in an official Marvel publication, and in the case of the Thor one, stories that were published as individual issues allude to it! Honestly, I think the hard part is going to be counting the pages in the Omnibus to figure out which pages the finished bits are on...

The issue that would have been EMPYRE: SPIDER-MAN #1 is complete; it takes place before Spidey shows up in FF6 21.

The issue that would have been EMPYRE: THOR #1 is complete, and takes place shortly after Empyre #2; it includes the quest that Empyre #3 mentions Thor's on (as well as a scene on the Agents of Wakanda's Helicarrier).

Only the first five pages of what would have been EMPYRE: SQUADRON SUPREME #1 are complete (and take place just after the Cotati attack begins). The rest of that issue, and all of #2, are only script-plus-line-art or script-plus-thumbnails form. Uh... I think I'm going to draw the line in front of "episode was not completed."

What would have been EMPYRE: STORMRANGER #1 & 2 are both script-plus-line-art; #3 is script only. (They're what Stormranger was up to between Magnificent Ms. Marvel #12 and 17.)

What would have been EMPYRE: THE INVASION OF WAKANDA #1 is line art, some of it colored, and four pages... not contiguous and not the first four pages... lettered. (It's after the Agents of Wakanda scene in Empyre: Thor #1.) #2 is pencils and some inks.

[Col_Fury]

What about the unfinished mini-series? Their publication (in unfinished state) in the Empyre Omnibus raises the question. Some episodes are complete, others are in various states from uncolored to cover only. Do we index nothing if only the third issue of a miniseries is unfinished? Or do we index everything that is published, including mere scripts. (I know we don't do covers.)

I got myself a copy of the Empyre Omnibus, and I'd say at least the two entirely finished (lettered), previously unpublished issues that appear in it should be included, for the same reason we include, say, the extra material from the Avengers: Korvac Saga and Spider-Man: Revelations TPBs. Like--they exist, they're completed episodes, they're in an official Marvel publication, and in the case of the Thor one, stories that were published as individual issues allude to it! Honestly, I think the hard part is going to be counting the pages in the Omnibus to figure out which pages the finished bits are on...

The issue that would have been EMPYRE: SPIDER-MAN #1 is complete; it takes place before Spidey shows up in FF6 21.

The issue that would have been EMPYRE: THOR #1 is complete, and takes place shortly after Empyre #2; it includes the quest that Empyre #3 mentions Thor's on (as well as a scene on the Agents of Wakanda's Helicarrier).

Only the first five pages of what would have been EMPYRE: SQUADRON SUPREME #1 are complete (and take place just after the Cotati attack begins). The rest of that issue, and all of #2, are only script-plus-line-art or script-plus-thumbnails form. Uh... I think I'm going to draw the line in front of "episode was not completed."

What would have been EMPYRE: STORMRANGER #1 & 2 are both script-plus-line-art; #3 is script only. (They're what Stormranger was up to between Magnificent Ms. Marvel #12 and 17.)

What would have been EMPYRE: THE INVASION OF WAKANDA #1 is line art, some of it colored, and four pages... not contiguous and not the first four pages... lettered. (It's after the Agents of Wakanda scene in Empyre: Thor #1.) #2 is pencils and some inks.

This makes sense. Partially finished = no, finished = yes.

As for page count, unlike the Korvac Saga TPB where new pages were inserted into existing comics, this is a collection of published and unpublished comics. Each issue would be a story in the omnibus. I don't have it in front of me, but if Empyre #1 is first in the book, it's the first story, Empyre #2 would the second story, etc.

So, if Empyre: Spider-Man is say, the ninth comic printed in the omnibus we would list it as EMPYRE OMNI /9, and if the story has to be broken up to include a flashback from somewhere else or whatever, it would be EMPYRE OMNI /9 (1 - 8) and EMPYRE OMNI /9 (9 - 20) or whatever.

Clear as mud?

[Col_Fury]

So now that I'm home and quickly looking at the omnibus, I didn't realize they included the Empyre handbook! haha, I wrote the Mantis profile in that issue.

They had all of the published stuff first (Incoming!, Road to Empyre, the two #0 issues, Empyre #1-6, etc.), then the handbook, then the unpublished stuff.

So Incoming! would be story 1, Road would be 2, the two #0 issues would be 3-4, etc.

The question is, I guess, is the handbook considered a story or an extra? I would say an extra. I mean, it's not a story, it's a reference piece.

So, if there are 40 "stories" before the handbook, then Empyre: Spider-Man #1 would be EMPYRE OMNI /41. The rest of the "mini" (the script with partial art) would be, in my mind, considered an extra. Then Empyre: Thor #1 would be EMPYRE OMNI /42, and the rest extras. Kind of like how we treat articles in Savage Sword of Conan, or text stories in Golden Age Timely comics.

Am I making sense?

[Leoparis]

In my posts of Dec 2, 2021 in the Character Watches subforum, I indicated the stories numbers.

https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... hp?t=18764

https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... hp?t=18765

https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... hp?t=18766

https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... hp?t=18767

https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... hp?t=18769