Human Torch and Dragon Man in A 41

[RobinHoodMtl]

Human Torch listing:
...
A 13
FF 35
ST 130
...
FF 47 (1 - 5:5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
...

Dragon Man listing
...
{FF 35 (1 - 11)}
FOHS:RH 1 (10:2)-FB
FF 35 (12 - 14:2)
A 41 (8:5)-FB
FF 35 (14:3 - 20:7)
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
A 41
...

While Dragon Man's first flashback in A 41 (8:5)-FB involving Mr. Fantastic is good, second flashback in A 41 (9:1)-FB is not. That panel also occurs in FF 35 when the Human Torch absorbs too much heat from Dragon Man's flame and has to vent it in the upper atmosphere. This panel sums up panels FF 35 (13:2-13:6) --not issue 47.
However the reference to FF 47 should be A 41 (9:2)-FB, which is the next panel where the Torch gives a sunburn to Dragon Man.

I would recommend the following changes for those characters:

Human Torch listing:
...
A 13
FF 35 (1 - 13:1)
FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6) ~ A (9:1)-FB
FF 35 (16-20)
ST 130
...
FF 47 (1 - 5:5)
A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
...

Dragon Man listing:
...
{FF 35 (1 - 11)}
FOHS:RH 1 (10:2)-FB
FF 35 (12 - 13:1)
FF 35 (13:2) ~ A 41 (9:1)-FB
FF 35 (14:1-14:2)

A 41 (8:5)-FB
FF 35 (14:3 - 20:7)
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
A 41
...

[michel]

While Dragon Man's first flashback in A 41 (8:5)-FB involving Mr. Fantastic is good, second flashback in A 41 (9:1)-FB is not. That panel also occurs in FF 35 when the Human Torch absorbs too much heat from Dragon Man's flame and has to vent it in the upper atmosphere. This panel sums up panels FF 35 (13:2-13:6) --not issue 47.
However the reference to FF 47 should be A 41 (9:2)-FB, which is the next panel where the Torch gives a sunburn to Dragon Man.

I agree the scene depicted in A 41 (9:1)-FB is close to FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6), but the text in A 41 (9:1)-FB specifically says "The F.F. battled Dragon Man on several occasions, and each time he seemed more powerful than before," meaning this scene didn't occur on their first fight. However I would rather have put A 41 (9:1)-FB between FF 47 (5:3) and (5:4).

[Leoparis]

I agree A 41 (9:1) is a recap of page 13 FF 35.
Specifically it is the moment from 13:3 with dialogue lifted from 13:6.

A 41 (8:5) re-uses a visual from FF 35 (14:3) with modifications and lifts some words from 14:4 ("exert enough pressure") from Sue to attribute them to Reed.

For that very reason I consider pointless to insert those recap panels in the middle of the sequences they recap.

The caption for 6:1 is an introduction to the two-panel recap and does not mean they both refer to FF 47.

[RobinHoodMtl]

I agree the scene depicted in A 41 (9:1)-FB is close to FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6), but the text in A 41 (9:1)-FB specifically says "The F.F. battled Dragon Man on several occasions, and each time he seemed more powerful than before," meaning this scene didn't occur on their first fight. However I would rather have put A 41 (9:1)-FB between FF 47 (5:3) and (5:4).

Even if the narration mentions the several occasions the FF fought Dragon Man, this does not exclude that this particular panel cannot be from their first fight since the following panel is from their last one in FF 47. And as Leoparis mentions, the speech bubble from Human Torch refers to a situation he faced in FF 35. I reviews all scenes involving Dragon Man since they first met and the only story that fits what Johnny says is FF 35. Nothing like that occurs in FF 47. I really don't see why A 41 (9:1)-FB should be placed between FF 47 (5:3) and (5:4). But it's clear that the A 41 (9:1)-FB line in current listing should be replaced by A 41 (9:2)-FB.

I agree A 41 (9:1) is a recap of page 13 FF 35.
Specifically it is the moment from 13:3 with dialogue lifted from 13:6.

Which is why I put those on the same line in my suggestion.

A 41 (8:5) re-uses a visual from FF 35 (14:3) with modifications and lifts some words from 14:4 ("exert enough pressure") from Sue to attribute them to Reed.

For that very reason I consider pointless to insert those recap panels in the middle of the sequences they recap.

A 41 (8:5) is already in the current listing and I agree with its present placement. But if you consider that it is a recap and that it should consequently be removed from the listing, I have no problem with that.

The caption for 6:1 is an introduction to the two-panel recap and does not mean they both refer to FF 47.

If you mean 9:1, I agree. Only 9:2 refers to FF 47.

[michel]

Even if the narration mentions the several occasions the FF fought Dragon Man, this does not exclude that this particular panel cannot be from their first fight since the following panel is from their last one in FF 47.

I'm not convinced. What do other people think?

[Leoparis]

It seems uncontroversial that A 41 (9:1) recaps page 13 of FF 35 and that makes it hard to figure where the doubt is coming from.

Even the caption about "several occasions" makes sense only if 9:1 and 9:2 depict these several occasions than if 9:1 and 9:2 are the same occasion. Also the caption referring to FF 47 is only in 9:2.

A possible source of difficulty is that the three panels are not in sequence since they refer to FF 35 page 14 then page 13 then FF 47. I think it is to show how the Human Torch went from being overwhelmed to overwhelming Dragon Man.

Anyway, if a doubt persists, the pragmatic solution is to consider those panels for what they are: recaps. And to omit them from the listings like is usual for recaps.

[RobinHoodMtl]

I agree. That's why I made those suggestions. But you are also right that if they don't add anything that was not there in the original story, these flashbacks are only recaps and removing them from the list would solve the problem.

[StrayLamb]

I agree the scene depicted in A 41 (9:1)-FB is close to FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6), but the text in A 41 (9:1)-FB specifically says "The F.F. battled Dragon Man on several occasions, and each time he seemed more powerful than before," meaning this scene didn't occur on their first fight. However I would rather have put A 41 (9:1)-FB between FF 47 (5:3) and (5:4).

I don't follow your reasoning here, Michel. The line you quote, "The F.F. battled Dragon Man on several occasions, and each time he seemed more powerful than before," refers to their previous battles, including the one in FF 35, as A 41 (9:1) is clearly a condensed version of FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6) as pointed out by RobinHoodMtl and Leoparis. As such, A 41 (9:1)-FB doesn't require a listing, as it's a recap of events already seen.

The narration continues in A 41 (9:2) "Finally it was the Human Torch who found a way to immobilize [Dragon Man]," with a footnote that tells us "This was much later, of course, in FF 47." I would say that the A 41 (9:1)-FB was inserted in error, and should have been A 41 (9:2)-FB. This panel does show us a new scene, which continues on directly from FF 47 (5), with the second word balloon being identical to the first word ballon of FF 47 (1).

The following updates should be applied..

DRAGON MAN
FOHS:RH 1 (10:1)-FB
{FF 35 (1 - 11)}
FOHS:RH 1 (10:2)-FB
FF 35 (12 - 14:2)
A 41 (8:5)-FB
FF 35 (14:3 - 20:7)
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB * CHANGE TO A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
A 41
---

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
---
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5:5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB * CHANGE TO A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
FF 48 (1 - 6:1)
---

[RobinHoodMtl]

The following updates should be applied..

DRAGON MAN
FOHS:RH 1 (10:1)-FB
{FF 35 (1 - 11)}
FOHS:RH 1 (10:2)-FB
FF 35 (12 - 14:2)
A 41 (8:5)-FB
FF 35 (14:3 - 20:7)
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB * CHANGE TO A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
A 41
---

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
---
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5:5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB * CHANGE TO A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
FF 48 (1 - 6:1)
---

I agree with your suggestion, with a minor amendment:

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
---
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5:5) * CHANGE TO FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:1)-FB * CHANGE TO A 41 (9:2)-FB
FF 47 (6 - 20)
FF 48 (1 - 6:1)

[michel]

I don't follow your reasoning here, Michel. The line you quote, "The F.F. battled Dragon Man on several occasions, and each time he seemed more powerful than before," refers to their previous battles, including the one in FF 35, as A 41 (9:1) is clearly a condensed version of FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6) as pointed out by RobinHoodMtl and Leoparis. As such, A 41 (9:1)-FB doesn't require a listing, as it's a recap of events already seen.

My reasoning is that FF 35 is their first battle, so how can it illustrate "each time he seemed more powerful than before" if there was no before for the FF 35 fight?
I would have:
A 41 (8:5)-FB between pages of FF 35
A 41 (9:1)-FB between pages of FF 45, maybe between (4:2) and (4:3), Dragon Man uses the same trick that worked in FF 35
A 41 (9:2)-FB "Finally it was the Human Torch who discovered a way to immobilize him" in FF 47
but that's just me.

[RobinHoodMtl]

My reasoning is that FF 35 is their first battle, so how can it illustrate "each time he seemed more powerful than before" if there was no before for the FF 35 fight?

I think that in this sentence, "before" implies "before the last" and does not mean that they meant to illustrate each encounter. So I'm not convinced at all that this reasoning is strong enough.

...
A 41 (9:1)-FB between pages of FF 45, maybe between (4:2) and (4:3), Dragon Man uses the same trick that worked in FF 35
...

Maybe, indeed. IMHO, this is clearly an assumption and we should not base this placement on a hypothesis when the speech bubbles and the illustration clearly summarize FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6). So I maintain that this panel is a recap that adds nothing we did not already know and does not need to be included.

[Leoparis]

My reasoning is that FF 35 is their first battle, so how can it illustrate "each time he seemed more powerful than before" if there was no before for the FF 35 fight?

A 41 (9:1) illustrates FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6) but that's not the first time Johnny saw the Dragon Man. He first saw it on page 3. There is a significant passage of time between pages 3 and 13. In FF 35 (13:2 - 13:6) Johnny expresses surprise that the dragon can shoot fire, that's an example of it seeming more powerful than before, within the same issue.

Not that we need to be so literal in explaining what Pym is saying about the FF facing Dragon Man. Pym wasn't there and his account does not have to be rigorously exact. Another reason not to insert those recap panels. These are not memories from anyone present at the events but Pym's reconstruction from reading Richards' summary report.

[RobinHoodMtl]

...

Not that we need to be so literal in explaining what Pym is saying about the FF facing Dragon Man. Pym wasn't there and his account does not have to be rigorously exact. Another reason not to insert those recap panels. These are not memories from anyone present at the events but Pym's reconstruction from reading Richards' summary report.

I agree with Leoparis on this last paragraph. Furthermore, the simplest way to solve this is to use official sources.

According to the Official Index for the Avengers, Reed's appearance in Avengers 41 goes as follows : "bts, during FF #63, also in rfb". And Johnny's goes like this "in frb2 only". So their flashback appearances are only Pym's retelling of their adventure with Dragon Man and they should not be listed. Same goes for Dragon Man's flashback appearance which is also rfb in the Index.

And while we're at it, Reed's behind the scene mention refers to the fact that the authorities "recently" gave legal custody of Dragon Man to Hank Pym on Reeds Richards recommendation. So technically, it's also a flashback BTS. While the index says during FF #63, Reed had his hands pretty full during the whole issue. He's not only helping Triton recover from battle injuries, but he's also dealing with those who injured him, namely Blastaar and Sandman. He even mentions it in pg13p1: "We have a more urgent problem to cope with...!" Although there are a few places within this issue where Reed is off panel, I strongly doubt that it was in Reed's top priorities to call the authorities to recommend the transfer of Dragon Man to Pym. I most likely occurred when their crisis was over.

Based on those official sources, I would recommend the following adjustments:

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
...
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:2)-FB <-- DELETE
FF 47 (6 - 20)
FF 48 (1 - 6:1)
INHS:US-FB
...

DRAGON MAN
FOHS:RH 1 (10:1)-FB
{FF 35 (1 - 11)}
FOHS:RH 1 (10:2)-FB
FF 35 (12 - 14:2)
A 41 (8:5)-FB <-- DELETE
FF 35 (14:3 - 20:7)
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47 (1 - 5)
A 41 (9:2)-FB <-- DELETE
FF 47 (6 - 20)
A 41
...

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
...
UTSM '96
A 13
FF 35 (1 - 14:2)
A 41 (8:5)-FB <-- DELETE
FF 35 (14:3 - 20:7)
FFWED
ST 130
...
FF 61
FF 62
FF 63
A 41 FB-BTS <-- ADD
ST 156
F.F.2 4-FB
C&DP 46
...

[StrayLamb]

When a character is only mentioned as having done such and such a thing at some previous time, and it's not shown on panel as an actual flashback to them doing it, there's no need for a listing at all.

[RobinHoodMtl]

@StrayLamb: If you are referring to my suggestion to add the FB-BTS line for Reed, I agree that it is not significant enough to necessarily appear in the listing even if an Official index mentions it.

Which brings the question, on what occasion would a FB-BTS tag be legitimate? I've seen it a on a few occasions in the listings, so there must be some reason behind it, though I cannot recall specifically where I've seen it.