Early Triton

[Leoparis]

Triton's backstory is rife with contradictions. Here is the current listing.

TRITON
INHS:OAFK 3-FB
INHS2 9 (8 - 20:2)-FB
T 150/2
T 151/2
INHS:OAFK 2
INHS:OAFK 4 (7 - 8)-FB
T 152/2 (1 - 5:1)
INHS:OAFK 4 (14)-FB
INHS:OAFK 4-BTS
INHS:OAFK 5
T 152/2 (5:2 - 5:4)
INHS:US (2:7 - 30)-FB
{FF 45}

Most of the Inhumans background was written in the OHOTMU.
This is especially visible when you look at the marvunapp entries for the parents of the royal family. (e.g. Azur/Mander http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix8/azurinhuman.htm)

OHOTMU 11 tells us Triton was subjected to Terrigen mists at the age of one.

In INHS:OAFK the Royal family looks very young, giving substance to the idea they mature at the same rate as humans. In MA 27-FB, their next appearance, they are called young royals.

In INHS:OAFK 3-FB Triton as a normal teenager cannot swim and is only subjected to the Terrigen mists when he comes of age (becomes an adult) while Karnak is a boy.

But in INHS 9 Triton says "From the moment of my birth I have been a creature of the ocean. Requiring not the Terrigen mists to realize my evolutionary potential."

Triton says, "I knew your mother before you Namor." And Namor answers "Be grateful, old man." Triton also saves a boy from the Lusitania in 1915 and meets him as an elderly in the present. Namor being born ca 1920, Triton would indeed be very old. Triton is involved in time travel in Uncanny Inhumans 1-4 but with no opportunity to travel to come across the Lusitania or to meet Fen.

The cinema crew in T 150/2-152/2 is evocative of the fifties. And the Marvel fandom site does place it in the fifties. But the INHS:OAFK series refers to it as occurring during the early Marvel era (with appearances by Spider-Man, the Wizard).

In Karnak 2, Karnak and Triton's parents are having an argument, Karnak is a toddler and Triton has already been subjected to Terrigen mists.

So the scene in INHS:OAFK 3-FB does not match any other reference.

INHS:OAFK 3-FB can be reinterpreted as a dream since we have Karnak sleeping in the subway right before this sequence. ("--Y'can't sleep here.")

This leaves the question of Triton being so old. The Inhumane/Uncanny Inhuman stories give us some paths. The Capo has lived for 20,000 years moving into new bodies, an Inhuman named Lineage can manifest any of his Inhuman ancestors or even people from their lineage (including Capo and Karnak). So the current Triton may be able to summon the memories of an earlier Triton (the one from 1916 that knew Fen). This is consistent with Inhuman society's concern to preserve their racial heritage.

Possibly:
TRITON I (add)
INHS2 9 (8 - 20:2)-FB

TRITON II (add Roman numeral)
INHS:OAFK 3-FB delete
INHS2 9 (8 - 20:2)-FB delete
T 150/2

Suggested corrections:
AZUR
INHS:OAFK 3-FB delete

KARNAK
INHS:OAFK 3-FB delete
KARNAK 2-FB

MANDER
INHS:OAFK 3-FB delete
KARNAK 2-FB-VO

TRITON
INHS:OAFK 3-FB delete
INHS2 9 (8 - 20:2)-FB

BLACK BOLT/BLACKAGAR BOLTAGON
INHS:OAFK 5 (6:5 - 6:6)-FB
A 95 (12:2)-FB } merge
A 95 (12:3 - 13:3)-FB } merge

MAXIMUS
ROYALS 3 (12:2 - 13)-FB
A 95 (12:2)-FB } merge
A 95 (12:3 - 13:3)-FB } merge

[loki]

I wrote Triton's last handbook entry, and I can assure you that almost nothing in his history came from prior OHOTMU, nor did I add anything to the history that didn't originate from a comic. I've still got my first draft notes, which break down what came from what issue, so I've just double checked that. In terms of the Lusitania and knowing Fen stuff, I brought that up with editorial, and was told to leave it out, since Triton should not be old enough to have been around in WW I. Additionally, we know the details of Triton's first encounter with humans, and it doesn't fit what he tells Namor. Basically, that one story has several continuity issues that make it problematic. You could explain Triton's comments simply by him lying - he's trying to win Namor over, so claiming to know his mother and to be older than him could be part of that. But there's a better option, and not one that requires inventing a new (but older) Triton who the current one shares memories with.

Triton was exposed to the mists at age 1; in INHS3 9 he remembers it as "from the moment of my birth I have been a creature of the sea" because, like most people, he has no memories of when he was less than a year old. He said he knew Fen before Namor, but he means he knew her before he met Namor - Fen died in 1958, so Triton could have met her in the 1950s, and Namor just misinterpreted his statement, hence him calling Triton "old man." The ship that sank? Presumably it happened, but it wasn't the Lusitania from World War I; either we have to simply ignore the name (like we do topical references) or it was another ship named after that prior vessel. It was a ship, and it was hit by a torpedo, but not one fired by the Germans during either World War. First encounter with humans? If it was rescuing the boy, Triton didn't really count it when he had his other "first encounter" because it lasted for all of a minute or two. Or he had his encounter with the film shoot humans first, and we just ignore the statement in INHS3 9, as we are forced to do for so many other contradictory details in that story. As for the boy now being an old man, that would still hold true for a boy rescued in the 1950s; thanks to the sliding timescale the "modern day" portions of INHS3 9 only took place a couple of years ago, so someone who was, say, 10 in 1960, would have been around 70.

Regardless of the specific explanations people want to go with, the point is that while the broad strokes of INHS3 9 happened, editorial ruled the specific details that provide dates should be ignored.

[Leoparis]

When did you write that Triton entry and was it before or after INHS:OAFK? Since you don't mention it, I guess you wrote it before OAFK and I would surmise, before the various 2010s Inhumans series. And where can I find that entry? (My mention of OHOTMU referred to the 1983 series, it seems you took it to refer to 2000s handbooks.)

As you can see, I'm trying to deal with OAFK as well. The Marvel fandom entry mentions Triton's first encounter with humans as occurring in the fifties but OAFK has it happening after the start of the Marvel era and it and other early Inhumans flashbacks state and show the Royals to be young. I also had to deal with whether Triton was exposed as a baby or in his late teens.

I understand Editorial telling you to ignore INHS2 9 because at the time (if that was before the various 2010s Inhumans series) there wasn't any lore to explain it. I provide the idea of a racial memory because that's an idea I found in the Charles Soule series. I mean, if we can make everything canon, let's do it.

I note you disagree with an earlier Triton (I knew someone would) but as for the Karnak and Triton flashback where Triton is not aquatic and cannot swim (OAFK 3), do you agree it should be treated as a dream? Since you wrote the Triton entry, your opinion is very valuable.

Since you still have your notes, do they tell where the Azur and Mander names come from, where the Inhumans full names come from and where the age of Triton's exposure comes from? I couldn't find the pre-OHOTMU comics they came from.

[loki]

When did you write that Triton entry and was it before or after INHS:OAFK?

2014, so before INHS:OAFK.

Since you don't mention it, I guess you wrote it before OAFK and I would surmise, before the various 2010s Inhumans series. And where can I find that entry? (My mention of OHOTMU referred to the 1983 series, it seems you took it to refer to 2000s handbooks.)

It was just written prior to and published just as the 2014 Inhuman series was starting to come out. That's why it does contain an error right at the end where it says Triton had been sent on a mission involving Ms. Marvel - per the info we'd been provided, that was what was meant to happen, but after the entry went to press it turned out the Ms. Marvel story had switched out Triton for Lockjaw. The entry appeared in the 2014 Avengers handbook.

Oh, and the note in the entry regarding that INHS3 9 story was:
There are conflicting accounts of Triton first meeting humans: one was his meeting with the underwater movie crew, but Triton once recalled another first encounter, where he saved a child from a ship sunk during the First World War. Since Triton was not born until decades later, these memories are suspect.

As you can see, I'm trying to deal with OAFK as well. The Marvel fandom entry mentions Triton's first encounter with humans as occurring in the fifties but OAFK has it happening after the start of the Marvel era and it and other early Inhumans flashbacks state and show the Royals to be young. I also had to deal with whether Triton was exposed as a baby or in his late teens.

Yep, the OAFK story is another problematic one in terms of contradicting past continuity. The main problem as I see it isn't even the Inhumans stuff - based on weight of evidence, I'd go:
Original OHOTMU claimed Triton exposed to mist at age 1, INHS3 9 claims "since birth" and suggests no mist, OAFK says he got exposed as a youth of perhaps between 5 and 11 - I'd go with OAFK as it was depicted on panel and an important plot point, versus stuff that has no plot relevance.

Prior tales place Triton's first encounter with humans when he was over 18, and in the 1950s since it prompted moving Attilan to avoid its discovery as humanity increased shipping risked this, INHS3 9 suggests he's way older, OAFK shows him looking younger than that already in human custody and in the modern era - if it wasn't for the presence of the Unspoken in OAFK, I'd got with saying we could squint at his depicted age to assume he was younger during the film crew capture first, then assume a larger gap between his rescue and Attilan being relocated than we thought (getting prepared for moving an island takes time), allowing OAFK to squeeze in between. As for INHS3 9, it break continuity so many times, I'd be willing to say that the modern day meeting between Triton and Namor happened, the past encounter where Triton rescues a boy happened, and then pretty well write off the rest of it - in other words, the important plot details happened, but none of the incidental info has to be forced in if it doesn't fit. This would mean Attilan got moved in the modern era, but I think we could accept the option that the Inhumans had shielded it from sonar, radar and satellite detection up until then, and the island had simply been enough off of shipping lanes for them to feel complacently safe until Triton's close call.

However, where OAFK really screws the pooch (sorry Lockjaw) is Spider-Man being there. I can't see how we're supposed to believe that the Inhuman Royals are teens the same time Spider-Man is already active - that makes them the same age or younger than him, and barring Crystal I can't see that. Keep in mind that the Inhumans' debut was contemporaneous with ASM32, and they look more than just a year or two younger in OAFK (Crystal is visibly prepubescent in OAFK, but by FF46 she's old enough to be dateable for Human Torch, who is about Spidey's age - Crystal is the only RF member who should be Spidey's contemporary age-wise). Spidey in OAFK would seem to have to be in the first couple of weeks of his costumed career for this to have a chance of fitting even vaguely. And it's not just a cameo that we could quietly ignore, he's a major part of the story. Again, we could "squint" at how everyone looks and assume Inhumans are all late bloomers who then hit puberty really fast, but it's a black mark against OAFK.

So with the Spidey thing in mind, OAFK starts to look to be on shaky ground. It already contradicted past continuity, and that makes it harder to bend stuff to make it fit.

I understand Editorial telling you to ignore INHS2 9 because at the time (if that was before the various 2010s Inhumans series) there wasn't any lore to explain it. I provide the idea of a racial memory because that's an idea I found in the Charles Soule series. I mean, if we can make everything canon, let's do it.

The problem with the race memory idea is that it would introduce a brand new character out of thin air. That's not something I'd rush to do. Easier to just ignore the stuff that dates when it happened and shift the whole ship rescue forward in time.

And believe me, I like to try and make everything canon where possible. Sometimes though writers make it impossible because they just layer on too many continuity contradictions.

I note you disagree with an earlier Triton (I knew someone would) but as for the Karnak and Triton flashback where Triton is not aquatic and cannot swim (OAFK 3), do you agree it should be treated as a dream? Since you wrote the Triton entry, your opinion is very valuable.

It could be simply a dream Karnak had rather than an accurate memory, but as I said above, I'm willing to overrule past info only provided in passing comments or OHOTMU in favor of an on-panel depiction. If we'd seen Triton as a baby gillman then it'd be different, but since we only got told that happened - well, show don't tell wins out.

Since you still have your notes, do they tell where the Azur and Mander names come from, where the Inhumans full names come from and where the age of Triton's exposure comes from? I couldn't find the pre-OHOTMU comics they came from.

I had to go to my notes for Karnak (I also wrote his entry) as I did that entry first, and had the relevant details there. And yes, the parents' names and Triton's age all came from the Deluxe Edition handbooks. Those are the only three pieces of information that did, and of course we've now had the parents' names confirmed in other stories.

[Midnighter]

Just to have an easy way to get to the topic, I post the link to the past discussione about OAFK:
http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... hp?t=18950

[Leoparis]

I had to go to my notes for Karnak (I also wrote his entry) as I did that entry first, and had the relevant details there. And yes, the parents' names and Triton's age all came from the Deluxe Edition handbooks. Those are the only three pieces of information that did, and of course we've now had the parents' names confirmed in other stories.

OK. These, along with their exact relationship, were what I referred to as background.

Oh, and the note in the entry regarding that INHS3 9 story was:
There are conflicting accounts of Triton first meeting humans: one was his meeting with the underwater movie crew, but Triton once recalled another first encounter, where he saved a child from a ship sunk during the First World War. Since Triton was not born until decades later, these memories are suspect.

If I may suggest, for the updated version, "these memories are unexplained" or something more neutral.

Yep, the OAFK story is another problematic one in terms of contradicting past continuity. The main problem as I see it isn't even the Inhumans stuff - based on weight of evidence, I'd go:
Original OHOTMU claimed Triton exposed to mist at age 1, INHS3 9 claims "since birth" and suggests no mist, OAFK says he got exposed as a youth of perhaps between 5 and 11 - I'd go with OAFK as it was depicted on panel and an important plot point, versus stuff that has no plot relevance.

I'd say it has a plot relevance in the argument seen in flashback between his parents in Karnak 2. The Karnak seen here is shown to be much younger than the one in OAFK 3 (a tot versus a boy).

"Since birth" can be hyperbole for "one year old" but also some racial memory activated by the mist. The "no mist" suggestion, I'd propose, is the older Inhuman speaking.

Prior tales place Triton's first encounter with humans when he was over 18, and in the 1950s since it prompted moving Attilan to avoid its discovery as humanity increased shipping risked this, INHS3 9 suggests he's way older, OAFK shows him looking younger than that already in human custody and in the modern era - if it wasn't for the presence of the Unspoken in OAFK, I'd got with saying we could squint at his depicted age to assume he was younger during the film crew capture first, then assume a larger gap between his rescue and Attilan being relocated than we thought (getting prepared for moving an island takes time), allowing OAFK to squeeze in between. As for INHS3 9, it break continuity so many times, I'd be willing to say that the modern day meeting between Triton and Namor happened, the past encounter where Triton rescues a boy happened, and then pretty well write off the rest of it - in other words, the important plot details happened, but none of the incidental info has to be forced in if it doesn't fit.

The Inhumans have had the flying island technology for a long time as witness the bird people's flying island from Red Raven 1.
The boy is 80 years older in INHS2 9. Any way you look at it, that makes Triton old. Or is the boy elderly in INHS2 9 incidental as well?

It could be simply a dream Karnak had rather than an accurate memory, but as I said above, I'm willing to overrule past info only provided in passing comments or OHOTMU in favor of an on-panel depiction. If we'd seen Triton as a baby gillman then it'd be different, but since we only got told that happened - well, show don't tell wins out.

Karnak 2 is written according to the OHOTMU info. We are not shown a baby gillman but we are told there was one.

However, where OAFK really screws the pooch (sorry Lockjaw) is Spider-Man being there. I can't see how we're supposed to believe that the Inhuman Royals are teens the same time Spider-Man is already active - that makes them the same age or younger than him, and barring Crystal I can't see that. Keep in mind that the Inhumans' debut was contemporaneous with ASM 32, and they look more than just a year or two younger in OAFK (Crystal is visibly prepubescent in OAFK, but by FF 46 she's old enough to be dateable for Human Torch, who is about Spidey's age - Crystal is the only RF member who should be Spidey's contemporary age-wise). Spidey in OAFK would seem to have to be in the first couple of weeks of his costumed career for this to have a chance of fitting even vaguely. And it's not just a cameo that we could quietly ignore, he's a major part of the story. Again, we could "squint" at how everyone looks and assume Inhumans are all late bloomers who then hit puberty really fast, but it's a black mark against OAFK.
So with the Spidey thing in mind, OAFK starts to look to be on shaky ground. It already contradicted past continuity, and that makes it harder to bend stuff to make it fit.

OAFK was placed very early--given Wizard and Trapster's duo in ST 110--after ASM 3, July 1963. It could go a bit earlier, right after ST 104, Jan 1963, Trapster's debut. (And presumably the Strange Tales issues could be moved earlier than their publication dates as regards the contemporaneous FF issues, to take into account Johnny Storm's "secret" identity in the ST stories but I doubt the apparent age of characters is cause enough to rework the ST chronology.)

The problem with the race memory idea is that it would introduce a brand new character out of thin air. That's not something I'd rush to do. Easier to just ignore the stuff that dates when it happened and shift the whole ship rescue forward in time.

I'm not sure it's totally out of thin air, we have an extended visual sequence, an old man who remembers Triton who saved him when he was a boy. Maybe write the note this way: "these memories are unexplained, possibly those of an earlier Inhuman" if you want to stay noncommittal.

And believe me, I like to try and make everything canon where possible. Sometimes though writers make it impossible because they just layer on too many continuity contradictions.

Oh, definitely. But that's why I'm ready to reinterpret all the data every time new data is added rather than sticking to a previous version and discarding layer upon layer of information.

I propose reinterpreting OAFK 3-FB as a dream but that's only because we see Karnak waking up right after that sequence. I would not have suggested it otherwise. Same for the racial memory, there would not have been cause for it before Charles Soule wrote it with the Lineage character, and specifically making Karnak (and therefore his brother Triton) part of his lineage. If the non-terrigenous Karnak could use the connection to manifest, we have two ways a manifestation could occur, terrigenous and racial. These are definite elements (rather than general speculation) that increase a mere possibility (of a dream, of a racial memory) to a probability.

So doing, I don't have to fudge or ignore the old Triton who knew Fen before Namor, the 1916 date, the "since birth" mention, the "no-mist" mention. Nor do I have to ditch the one-year-old 's exposure & Karnak 2-FB in favor of OAFK 3-FB. I think that would be a lot of things to ditch. Food for thought.

In reviewing their chronology I noticed Trapster was missed and Wizard does not appear in INHS:OAFK 4 (1 - 16).

Suggested corrections:
TRAPSTER/PETER PETRUSKI
{ST 104}
*INHS:OAFK 3
*INHS:OAFK 5-FB
ST 110

WIZARD/BENTLEY WITTMAN
ST 102-FB
ST 102
ST 105
INHS:OAFK 2
INHS:OAFK 3
INHS:OAFK 4 (1 - 16)
INHS:OAFK 5-FB
INHS:OAFK 4 (17 - 18)
INHS:OAFK 5
ST 110

[dimadick]

Triton says, "I knew your mother before you Namor." And Namor answers "Be grateful, old man." Triton also saves a boy from the Lusitania in 1915 and meets him as an elderly in the present. Namor being born ca 1920, Triton would indeed be very old.

Not necessarily, as Princess Fen was herself long-lived. Her brief love affair with Leonard McKenzie is typically placed in the early 1920s, though the late 1910s would work as well. She was still taking a parental role in Namor's stories of the 1940s. Such as "Marvel Mystery Comics 12"" (October 1940), where Fen chooses a bride for Namor, without asking for his consent.

Fen supposedly died in the late 1950s, due to an attack by Destiny/Paul Destine. As told in flashback in "Sub-Mariner 1" (May, 1968). However, the strange storyline in "Namor" #29-40 (August 1992-July 1993) explains that the mortally wounded Fen was kidnapped from the ruins of Atlantis, and her body fell under spirit possession by the supposedly long-dead cultist Artys-Gran.

Artys-Gran magically rejuvenated her new body, while the real Fen's spirit was trapped in Artys-Gran's original body and buried alive. Both Artys-Gran and Fen had reunions with their son Namor in the early 1990s. Both women were finally killed in Namor #40, after supposedly struggling with each other for decades.