Eisenhower & TOS 66-68

[Leoparis]

One footnote in TOS 66 refers to fighting the Maxon Red Skull last month, but this has to be a topical reference. All other elements point to a later period:
The reference to a Supreme Allied Commander and to "America's top military commander". The UK had no "Allies" before the Anglo-Soviet agreement of July 12, 1941, but there was no Allied command with the USSR. Allied Force HQ was established in the United Kingdom on 14 August 1942 under Lieutenant General Dwight David Eisenhower in order to command the forces committed to Operation Torch, the Allied invasion of French North Africa, set for November. Eisenhower had the title Commander-in-Chief, Allied Expeditionary Force.

The general seen in TOS 68 does look like Eisenhower, the one in TOS 67 doesn't, I'll treat them as different. The one in 67 can be the military assistant/aide de camp of Eisenhower.

Rogers and Barnes are stationed with their Camp Lehigh unit (under Sgt Duffy) in England and carry out military duties such as escorting prisoners. This story has to take place after Aug 42 and possibly after Camp Lehigh's unit moves to England in 1944. This will require further analysis of Captain America and Red Skull but the inclusion of Eisenhower can be implemented.

The line of dialog "How did you learn that Maxon wasn't the real Red Skull last month?" can be reinterpreted as Cap learning one month prior that Maxon was not the real Red Skull rather than fighting with Maxon one month prior. (Note that Maxon returns in CAC 3.) In such a case an early placement is favorable.

EISENHOWER, GEN. DWIGHT D.
TOS 68 add
SGTF 31
SGTF 88-BTS
SGTF@ 2

[RobinHoodMtl]

When I made my post about Eisenhower appearing in SGTF 31, it was based on a topical logic. The only problem here is that, whereas there is no official index about SGTF 31, there is one about TOS which lists that general as an unnamed "US General" for issues TOS 67 and 68. Even though that reference clearly implies they are the same character, it does not identify him as Eisenhower. I admit that if he was meant, to be Eisenhower, we cannot rule out that it was an unlikely omission in the index, but it remains an assumption.

In addition, looking at MCP's listings for Cap, TOS 66-68 probably occurs in the summer of 1941, though I have nothing official to support this other than my own timeline for WWII stories. But even if I'm off by several months, Eisenhower was not yet in command of US support forces in London at that time. Without any official reference, I'm not sure your assumption is incorrect, but I thought it was worth bringing this up for further consideration.

[Leoparis]

I knew what the index said. I've read indexes and handbooks since the early 1980s and they get updated and corrected all the time. Whenever I see an obvious mistake, I give all the necessary information to get it corrected.

An assumption is when you suppose something is true without having proven it beforehand. I point to the general's function ("America's top military commander," "Allied commander," "the Allies' High Command"), to his appearance and I could also point to the presence of American troops (Steve Rogers' unit and Sgt. Duffy) in England and to the fact that if the Germans send a commando to kill America's top military commander, the US must be at war with Germany already.

You may not agree but, from my viewpoint, the assumptions here are the bits of information from the index. At this time Lee didn't always have time to make a story conference and sometimes merely scripted Kirby's already drawn and plotted story. The Lee-Kirby stories can sometimes be read in two ways, the way Kirby plotted it and the way Lee scripted it. Lee scripted it in part as happening one month after TOS 65/2 but Kirby penciled it as happening when Eisenhower was Allied Commander. And even Lee identified the general as having the function of Eisenhower.

I haven't pinpointed exactly when between Aug 1942 and June 1944 TOS 66/2-68/2 take place, but my post is only about including Eisenhower. I used to make posts correcting all mistakes in a period or issue but I've seen many of those remain in limbo, probably because people agree on one part and not on another. I don't mind whether the general in TOS 67/2 is Eisenhower or his aide de camp as long as Eisenhower is acknowledged for TOS 68/2. I will tackle the date later.

The next storyline 69-71 mentions the upcoming "big push" and "big drive" (D-Day in June 1944) but also rangers on a mission in a nazi-held port (referring either to St Nazaire in June 1942, Operation Chariot, or Dieppe in Aug 42, Operation Jubilee).

Note: If you're curious about the Lee-Kirby disconnect, I point you to my 2014 post https://comicspeak.blogspot.com/2014/01 ... eries.html At the time, people told me, "No, no, he's leaping." I was very unskilled at posting pictures and so kept them to a minimum.
Tom Brevoort developed or reached the same conclusion on his own in 2019: https://tombrevoort.com/2019/03/23/lee- ... e-can-fly/ He illustrates all the pages I mentioned plus those which are ambiguous.

On the same general subject: https://kirbywithoutwords.tumblr.com/

[Col_Fury]

For what it's worth, I have TOS 67/2-68/2 happening in August, 1941.

[Leoparis]

That's... the very problem addressed in my posts. How could there be an American general in the position of Allied Commander in Britain along with regular troops before the USA is at war with Germany?

And if I were to explain the discrepancy, I'd say from the fact that previous issues were retelling stories from Captain America Comics 1, Stan Lee did not have the time to provide plots. Kirby came up with this one on his own based on his experience being stationed in Britain in 1944 (page 57 of Scioli's biography) and Lee scripted it as if it followed the previous issue, not paying attention to all the details that place it later.

This is just a likely theory I propose to explain the discrepancies. Merely dismissing a theory, as I have seen some commenters do in a recent thread, will not resolve the discrepancies. In order to propose an August 1941 placement, an explanation is required for an American general as Allied commander-in-chief, for the American troops stationed in England, for the nazi commando targeting an American general before the USA and Germany are at war.

[Col_Fury]

We know there were volunteer American troops in Europe before America joined the war; that's what gets pointed at to explain why the Howling Commandos were active in Europe before US soldiers were "supposed" to be there. Given that, is it so crazy to say that in the Marvel Universe the United States also sent volunteer generals in an advisory capacity to help Allied Command coordinate their efforts?

Just a theory to explain a possible discrepancy.

[StrayLamb]

Did the War in Europe have to unfold in the Marvel Universe in the exact same way that it did in our world? I don't believe that it did. I think we can use real world events as a guide, but not as an absolute. We're dealing with a fictional, alternate universe here. A number of fictional events took place prior to WW2 in the Marvel Universe which could have had a subtle ripple effect on its history, such as vampires, the secret existence of SHIELD, the apparently two Martian Invasions (1913 Original Sin Annual 1 & History of the Marvel Universe 2) & 1917 (All-New Invaders 12), etc.

[RobinHoodMtl]

We know there were volunteer American troops in Europe before America joined the war; that's what gets pointed at to explain why the Howling Commandos were active in Europe before US soldiers were "supposed" to be there. Given that, is it so crazy to say that in the Marvel Universe the United States also sent volunteer generals in an advisory capacity to help Allied Command coordinate their efforts?

Just a theory to explain a possible discrepancy.

I agree with you. A nation does not need to be officially at war with another one to send support troops to assist an ally. Captain America has been fighting Nazis way before US declared war on the Axis Forces. Closer to us, several countries gave their support during the Golfe War without being officially at war. And the US has a long history of interfering with other nations in so many wars I can't even list them here. So yes, it is quite plausible that another general than Eisenhower was involved in Europe before Pearl Harbor.

And my date for TOS 67/2-68/2 is also August, 1941.

Did the War in Europe have to unfold in the Marvel Universe in the exact same way that it did in our world? I don't believe that it did. I think we can use real world events as a guide, but not as an absolute. We're dealing with a fictional, alternate universe here. A number of fictional events took place prior to WW2 in the Marvel Universe which could have had a subtle ripple effect on its history, such as vampires, the secret existence of SHIELD, the apparently two Martian Invasions (1913 Original Sin Annual 1 & History of the Marvel Universe 2) & 1917 (All-New Invaders 12), etc.

Of course. It's a fictional world after all (sorry to disappoint the true believers). Yet for some real-life characters, like famous country leaders (Churchill, Kennedy, Roosevelt, Nixon, etc.) or military officers (Eisenhower, Erwin Rommel, MacArthur, etc.) the timelines are usually very similar in both universes at the time they were published. Adolf Hitler may be one of the few exceptions because Marvel had a lot of imagination over the years.