Captain Marvel 1978-1979

[michel]

Shouldn't CM 57 be placed before CM 55-56? It looks like a fill-in, Drax is announced for the next issue in CM 56 but only appears in CM 58. But above all, Rick Jones flies to France in CM 55 "for the beginning of Rick's showcase tour of the continent," the Deathgrip incident lasts two days, and Rick would be back in New York before Cap goes back to the Denver's observatory at the beginning of CM 58?

[StrayLamb]

Rick's back by CM 60 anyway, and CM 58-60 take place in quick succession. I agree that it makes more sense and reads better placing CM 57 before CM 55, while Mar-Vell's still in New York, but not sure it qualifies as having to be moved under the MCP's constraints, as it's not impossible for it to take place where it is. I'm for the move if we can get away with it.

[Leoparis]

A 181 is a follow-up to A 177. A 178 and 179-180 are fill-ins or inventory issues. A 181 would have been Dec 78.

Ms. Marvel was monthly at first. Its shift to bi-monthly delayed her new costume, which should have appeared in August 78, as seen in DEF 62:
17 May 78
18 Jun 78
19 Aug 78 old costume in tatters
20 Oct 78 new costume

Captain Marvel decides to leave Earth in Sep 78 in his own title and does not return until M/SPT2 3 Nov 79. He next appears in another series in FF Annual 14, Dec 79, so it seems Marvel writers were well aware he was not on Earth. His decision to leave Earth makes more sense if he cannot stay at Avengers Mansion anymore in the wake of A 181. Based on this, CM 58-M/SPT 3 should take place between A 181 and FF@ 14. Those issues taking place on Titan do not involve any other Marvel series and can be moved easily.

Suggested correction:
CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL/"DR. WALTER LAWSON"
A 177 Nov 1978 Ms. Marvel old costume
A:KS
T 271 May 1978
A 227-FB
DEF 62 Aug 78 Ms. Marvel new costume
DEF 63 Sep 78
MSM2 35-FB
M/TIO 45 Nov 78
M/S-H3 3/5
**A 181 Mar 79 move here
CM 58 (4 - 17) Sep 78
CM 59
CM 60
CM 61
CM 62
M/SPT2 1
M/SPT2 2
M/SPT2 3 Nov 79 (returns to Earth)
**A 181 Mar 79 move from here
FF@ 14 Dec 79 (with Avengers and Defenders)
M/SPT2 4 Jan 80
M/TIO 69 Nov 80
IH2 245 Mar 80
IH2 246
IH2 247
IH2 248 Jun 80
ASM 502-FB-VO
FF@ 15 Oct 1980

Note: A 227 is a self-recording of Mar-Vell giving his background. We don't see the color of his hair. It could take place anywhere when he's involved with the Avengers, after A 72, A 97, A 125, MTIO Annual 2, A 177, etc. A 177 matches the look of his hair and he has nowhere to live. My only gripe is that we have T 271 separating it from the Korvac saga. If you agree, change it along with the above, if not that's okay to ignore it.

A 177
A:KS
A 227-FB move here?
T 271 May 78
A 227-FB move from here?
**MSM 19 Aug 78 move here

[StrayLamb]

Captain Marvel decides to leave Earth in Sep 78 in his own title and does not return until M/SPT2 3 Nov 79. He next appears in another series in FF Annual 14, Dec 79, so it seems Marvel writers were well aware he was not on Earth. His decision to leave Earth makes more sense if he cannot stay at Avengers Mansion anymore in the wake of A 181. Based on this, CM 58-M/SPT 3 should take place between A 181 and FF@ 14. Those issues taking place on Titan do not involve any other Marvel series and can be moved easily.

Hmm. I'm not really convinced. Mar-Vell is requested to go to Titan by ISAAC, in accordance with a failsafe scheme programmed into his circuitry by Thanos before his death. Mar-Vell would have gone even if he was housed at Avengers Mansion at that time. He doesn't leave Earth because he's looking for a home on Titan. In fact, he's already decided to hang out in Denver.

[Leoparis]

OK, the diegetic elements are unconvincing.

What about the extradiegetic elements? Captain Mar-Vell made numerous guest appearances before CM 59, Nov 78 (A 168, MSM 19, 173-177, T 271, DEF 62-63, M/TIO 45). But none (except A 181) while his adventures on Titan were published.

And we've currently got this Mar 79 issue (which should have been Dec 78) between a Nov 79 issue and a Dec 79 issue.

The premise of A 181 is that it's not so long after A 177 since all the people involved in A 177 are still around and the collapse of Quicksilver is attributed to recent happenings--kidnapped by the Collector, mind-wiped by Moondragon. You also have the Maximoff subplot starting in A 166, leaving from Vladivostok, continuing in A 173 and reaching fruition in A 181. (A container ship takes 51 days to reach NYC but adding a one-year long storyline.)

One reason that so many issues wind up between A 177 and A 181 is that the earliest chronologies (which tried to avoid breaks within issues) tended to keep A 167-177 and A 181-189 together, but there are breaks (identified since) inside both these storylines.
(This earlier way of organizing issues led to things like adding dozens of issues between IH2 207 & 208 even though the narration of 208 places it right after 207.)

My point: we stick too many issues between A 177 and A 181 and the Captain Marvel storyline on Titan in 1979 is one that can be easily shifted according to its release dates and lack of interaction with other series. That absence of Captain Marvel from Earth was acknowledged by the absence of guest appearances.

As you can see, I also take into account the larger tapestry.

[StrayLamb]

Shouldn't CM 57 be placed before CM 55-56? It looks like a fill-in, Drax is announced for the next issue in CM 56 but only appears in CM 58. But above all, Rick Jones flies to France in CM 55 "for the beginning of Rick's showcase tour of the continent," the Deathgrip incident lasts two days, and Rick would be back in New York before Cap goes back to the Denver's observatory at the beginning of CM 58?

In light of Leoparis's comments, i've read thru all of these issues again, and i agree that CM 57 should be taken out from between CM 56 & 58. CM 57 is just a few days after A@ 7, and serves as an epilogue to the Thanos storyline, but it’s a filler issue and breaks the story flow between CM 56 & 58, which was advertised as the following issue at the end of CM 56.

In reviewing all of these Captain Marvel appearances, it appears that CM 55-59 (1 - 3) has been placed too early due to being tied to CM 57.

Here's how i believe Mar-Vell's timeline should look for this period..

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL/"DR. WALTER LAWSON"
---
CM 57 [July 78][CM in Manhattan. Filler issue, interrupts story between CM 56 & 58. Days after A@ 7 and defeat of Thanos, and serves an epilogue to those events]
CM 55-56 [March-May 78]
CM 58 (1 - 3) [Sept 78]
A 168 [Feb 78][CM in Manhattan]
A 172-BTS [June 78]
MSM 19 [Aug 78][CM in Manhattan. Meets up with Carol for the first time since she became Ms Marvel]
A 173-176 [July-Oct 78][CM in Manhattan with Ms Marvel & the Avengers]
A 177 (1 - 4:3) [Nov 78]
FF@ 24/2 (2)-FB
A 177 (4:4 - 12:3)
FF@ 24/2 (3:1)-FB
A 177 (12:4 - 18) [Nov 78]
A:KS
T 271 [May 78][CM probably in Manhattan]
A 227-FB
M/TU 74 [Oct 78][CM doesn't appear, but Rick Jones appears on SNL (I must have missed that episode!). Before DEF 62-63 for Ms Marvel, as she’s still working for Woman magazine in M/TU 76-77, which are after M/TU 74 for Spider-Man. Currently placed between CM 57 & CM 60 for Rick]
DEF 62-63 [Aug-Sept 78][CM hanging out with Ms Marvel & the Defenders on Long Island. Defenders story continues to DEF 68, Feb 79]
MSM2 35-FB [CM with Ms Marvel at the Cape]
CM 55-56 [March-May 78][CM first heads to Colorado. Rick begins world tour, which could be as a result of his exposure on SNL]
CM 58-62 [Sept 78-May 79][CM heads into space with Drax]
M/SPT2 1-3 [July-Nov 79][CM is heading back to Earth]
M/TIO 45 [Nov 78][CM in Colorado]
M/S-H3 3/5 [Starts in Colorado, ends in NYC]
CM 58 (4 - 17)-62 [Sept 78-May 79][CM heads into space with Drax]
M/SPT2 1-3 [July-Nov 79][CM is heading back to Earth]
A 181 [March 79][CM takes his leave of the Avengers]
FF@ 14 [Dec 79][CM in Manhattan with Ms Marvel, the Defenders, and the Avengers]
M/SPT2 4 [Jan 80][CM in Colorado]
---

Breaking CM 57 from the rest of the issues allows CM 55-56, 58-62, and M/SPT2 1-3 to proceed in an uninterrupted fashion, as they were written, eliminating the forced break in CM 58, and allowing this story to be placed where it belongs, at the beginning of Mar-Vell's sojourn in Colorado.

The premise of A 181 is that it's not so long after A 177 since all the people involved in A 177 are still around and the collapse of Quicksilver is attributed to recent happenings--kidnapped by the Collector, mind-wiped by Moondragon. You also have the Maximoff subplot starting in A 166, leaving from Vladivostok, continuing in A 173 and reaching fruition in A 181. (A container ship takes 51 days to reach NYC but adding a one-year long storyline.)

Iron Man suggests the recent happenings to Quicksilver as a possibility for his collapse, although that's not the real reason, and the container ship may have had breakdowns, quarantine problems, etc. It's not perfect, i know.

One reason that so many issues wind up between A 177 and A 181 is that the earliest chronologies (which tried to avoid breaks within issues) tended to keep A 167-177 and A 181-189 together, but there are breaks (identified since) inside both these storylines.
(This earlier way of organizing issues led to things like adding dozens of issues between IH2 207 & 208 even though the narration of 208 places it right after 207.)

My point: we stick too many issues between A 177 and A 181 and the Captain Marvel storyline on Titan in 1979 is one that can be easily shifted according to its release dates and lack of interaction with other series. That absence of Captain Marvel from Earth was acknowledged by the absence of guest appearances.

I'm still not really seeing any way to bring A 181 back to before Mar-Vell heads into space for these issues, but this sequence at least brings Mar-Vell back to Manhattan in M/S-H3 3/5, and places him there for A 181. There are really no more issues between the Korvac Saga and A 181 for Mar-Vell than there are for Captain America, Iron Man and Thor. There are a number of issues of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Ms Marvel, Marvel Team-Up, Daredevil, and Defenders for our various characters during this period of time. A 181 is also more closely linked to HSMASHA 2, which needs to be taken into consideration. HSMASHA 2 upset the timeline established in the old indexes, which linked A 181 more closely to previous issues.

What do you think?

[Leoparis]

Well, I'm trying to reduce the number of issues between A 177 and A 181 for other characters as well but I proceed with one character at a time and Captain Marvel's long adventure on Titan seemed a no-brainer to start with.

Looking at you proposed chronology:
M/TU 74 [Oct 78][CM doesn't appear, but Rick Jones appears on SNL (I must have missed that episode!). Before DEF 62-63 for Ms Marvel, as she’s still working for Woman magazine in M/TU 76-77, which are after M/TU 74 for Spider-Man. Currently placed between CM 57 & CM 60 for Rick]
DEF 62-63 [Aug-Sept 78][CM hanging out with Ms Marvel & the Defenders on Long Island. Defenders story continues to DEF 68, Feb 79]
MSM2 35-FB [CM with Ms Marvel at the Cape]
CM 55-56 [March-May 78][CM first heads to Colorado. Rick begins world tour, which could be as a result of his exposure on SNL]
CM 58-62 [Sept 78-May 79][CM heads into space with Drax]
M/SPT2 1-3 [July-Nov 79][CM is heading back to Earth]
M/TIO 45 [Nov 78][CM in Colorado]
M/S-H3 3/5 [Starts in Colorado, ends in NYC]
A 181 [March 79][CM takes his leave of the Avengers]

I see some advantages such as Captain Marvel trying unsuccessfully to apply for Defenders before moving to Colorado. But applying for the Defenders for him, Hercules and Ms. Marvel also makes more sense if DEF 62-63 take place after A 181. It also works if A 181 takes place after as they cannot have all expected to remain on the Avengers roster.

You also have Captain Marvel returning to Colorado when he returns to Earth.

Originally I wouldn't have envisaged to have CM 55-56 later than A 177 due to release dates but the Enemy (as he was called then) saga started in A 167, Jan 78, so there is a legitimate reason for it--does A 167-177 rather take place with Jan 1978 issues or with Nov 78 issues? There is also the fill-in A 169 which delays the conclusion of the saga. And, of course, the Ms. Marvel costume which changed in DEF 62, Aug 78, but Ms. Marvel wears the old one up to A 177, Nov 78. All this argues for A 177 taking place before Aug 78.

The new Ms. Marvel costume appearing so soon in Defenders is proof that there was coordination and writers were advised of coming changes. But various factors threw that coordination out of whack. Back then, a solution to avoid going reprint in case of lateness was to have filler issues. Those filler issues were also used prior to a change of status quo that would make them obsolete. And some titles shifted from monthly to bi-monthly (including Ms. Marvel with the result that her new costume makes its debut in her own series after DEF 62).

So I will see if I can break A 181 in two with the early parts (1 - 11:4 or 1 - 12:2) taking place as recently as possible after A 177 and the later ones (15 - 17) taking place along early 1979 issues. On page 12 Dr. Blake tells Iron Man and Scarlet Witch to "continue with their daily routine, go save the world" so I can envision Quicksilver remaining in a coma for weeks. As long as the Avengers issues in-between do not require the special privileges reinstated at the end (this will hardly be a problem as in A 179 they have a special FAA authorization to use the quinjet.)

HSMASHA 2 (placed after A 182 but before CA 229) contradicts A 179, which takes place after Captain America leaving the East Coast in CA 229. (Unless A 179-180 are out of place and should go after A 182? Or before the Epilog? Don Blake, Yellowjacket and Wonder Man are still around in A 182.)

I'm fine with your proposed Captain Marvel changes. There are more issues to address with both Captain Marvel and Avengers. They can be addressed in new threads.

[StrayLamb]

I will see if I can break A 181 in two with the early parts (1 - 11:4 or 1 - 12:2) taking place as recently as possible after A 177 and the later ones (15 - 17) taking place along early 1979 issues. On page 12 Dr. Blake tells Iron Man and Scarlet Witch to "continue with their daily routine, go save the world" so I can envision Quicksilver remaining in a coma for weeks. As long as the Avengers issues in-between do not require the special privileges reinstated at the end (this will hardly be a problem as in A 179 they have a special FAA authorization to use the quinjet.)

HSMASHA 2 (placed after A 182 but before CA 229) contradicts A 179, which takes place after Captain America leaving the East Coast in CA 229. (Unless A 179-180 are out of place and should go after A 182? Or before the Epilog? Don Blake, Yellowjacket and Wonder Man are still around in A 182.)

There are more issues to address with both Captain Marvel and Avengers. They can be addressed in new threads.

I'm not sure that splitting A 181 will work, due to the early part of the issue being tied to ASM 189 & FF 204. Regarding A 179, Vision simply says Cap had to leave the city on urgent business. We may have to ignore the editor's footnote pointing us to CA 229, as we've had to do a number of times before when later comics forced their redundancy, but as you say, those matters can be dealt with separately.

[Leoparis]

What FF 204 says is that the Avengers are in conference with Gyrich. But if I break A 181 in two there are two conferences, the first one to tell them they will cull down membership to seven members, the second one to tell them they have cooperated and will get their prioriy reinstated in 24 hours.

And that's not mentioning that it could be another conference than the one in A 181, Mar 79, if we start dismissing footnotes. If there's one thing I've been constant about is avoid dismissing too readily narration, footnotes, costumes, stories and the like. Consider it my contribution.

FF 204, Mar 79, takes place at the same time as ASM 190, Mar 79, the battle with the Man-Wolf that starts in ASM 189. ASM 189 spans a few days and can span more.

[StrayLamb]

Suggested updates:

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPT. MAR-VELL/"DR. WALTER LAWSON"
---
A@ 7
M/TIO@ 2-FB
M/TIO@ 2
CM 55<--- MOVE FROM HERE
CM 56<--- MOVE FROM HERE
CM 57
CM 58 (1 - 3)<--- DELETE
A 168
A 172-BTS
MSM 19
A 173
A 174
A 175
A 176
A 177 (1 - 4:3)
FF@ 24/2 (2)-FB
A 177 (4:4 - 12:3)
FF@ 24/2 (3:1)-FB
A 177 (12:4 - 18)
A:KS
T 271
A 227-FB
DEF 62
DEF 63
MSM2 35-FB
CM 55<--- MOVE TO HERE
CM 56<--- MOVE TO HERE
M/S-H3 3/5<--- MOVE FROM HERE
CM 58 (4 - 17) <--- DELETE PAGE RANGE
CM 59
CM 60
CM 61
CM 62
M/SPT2 1
M/SPT2 2
M/SPT2 3
M/S-H3 3/5<--- MOVE TO HERE
A 181
FF@ 14
M/SPT2 4
---

JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
---
CM 54
CM 55 <--- MOVE FROM HERE
CM 57
M/TU 74
CM 55 <--- MOVE TO HERE
CM 60
CM 61
CM 62
M/SPT2 1
M/SPT2 2
M/SPT2 3
IH2 245
---

[michel]

StrayLamb, your suggestion doesn't work because of Ronan : he's still amnesiac and at Ethan's farm in CM 55, but in MSM 19 the farm is destroyed, Ronan has his memories back and then leaves Earth. So CM 55 has to come before MSM 19.

[StrayLamb]

StrayLamb, your suggestion doesn't work because of Ronan : he's still amnesiac and at Ethan's farm in CM 55, but in MSM 19 the farm is destroyed, Ronan has his memories back and then leaves Earth. So CM 55 has to come before MSM 19.

That's just a single-page interlude with Ronan at the farm. How about we extract CM 55 (8) from the main story, and place it between CM 53 & MSM 19?