Ron Marz' 2nd retro mini-series Warlock: Rebirth causes a problem for the chronology I've created for his Silver Surfer: Rebirth mini (SSR) which I've placed between SS3@7 and IH2#417-418. That problem is the presence of Dr Strange. I'm going to have to deal with that before I can add WLR (as I shall call the 2nd series) itself.
These are the amended chronologies for SS and Thanos from my Silver Surfer Rebirth thread. I've extended them backwards a bit for reasons that will become clear.
THANOS
----
SECDEF 11-13
CP 1-6
SSR 1-5
SS3 98
----
SILVER SURFER
----
SECDEF 14 (an epilogue to Thanos' #11-13)
IH2 414-416
SS@ 7
M/CP 172/3
M/CP 173
M/CP 174/3
M/CP 175/2
CLAN 1-3
SSR 1-5
IH2 417-418
SS3 93
----
WLR is specifically set after SSR. In SSR Silver Surfer suggests to Legacy that if he wants to know more about his father Captain Marvel he should visit his adopted home Earth. In WLR#1 he arrives on Monster Island looking for Adam Warlock and repeating the Surfer's advice (with an editorial caption referencing SSR#5).
Dr Strange gets involved in WLR#2-5 in non-astral form with his classic appearance. Ron has presumably forgotten that during much of this period Doc was confined to a pocket dimension and could only appear on Earth in astral form. Moreover he now sported close-shaven hair and a stubbly beard plus was without his Cloak Of Levitation, and his astral form mirrored that. He appears that way in IH2#414, and Surfer has IH2#414-416 before SS3@7. This suggests that WLR can't be *before* Strange gets in that situation in DSSS#61. Legacy and some of the Infinity Watch also visit Strange in his Sanctum Sanctorum, but that has been destroyed in the same event which banished Doc to the other dimension.
But could WLR happen after Strange inevitably resolves his problem (in DSSS#75)? Unfortunately after that he spends some time with long hair and a different costume under the returned Cloak. Then (DSSS#80) he resumes his normal physical look but with the Cloak turned into a coat over a brocade waistcoat/shirt. He'll wear this until SENSM#22-23 when he regains powers that he lost by initially refusing to join in the War Of The 7 Spheres, and simultaneously returns to his classic costume. (But note that his chronology has him later sometimes still in the fancy costume, eg HR:R#2. Maybe a subject for a later investigation?)
WLR also involves Warlock and the Infinity Watch with the Infinity Gems, which they lose and then disband at the end of their series. But SENSM#22-23 are well after DCV.M/ (in which DrS has the fancy costume), which in turn is after RUNE/SS which coincides with the end of the Infinity Watch. So Doc in his classic outfit can't fit with the Watch after as well as during the pocket dimension period.
However if we allow Dr Strange's costume to be a mistake for his post-DSSS#80 fancier version then it might be possible to fit WLR's Infinity Watch apps somewhere between WLOCK&TIW#36 (which is connected to DrS's pocket dimension era) and the end in #42.
(There's also a problem that DSSS#80 says he buys a new brownstone to replace the destroyed Sanctum, yet in WLR#2 Pip teleports himself and others to DrS's place which he can only do if he's been there before. But then Marvel soon seems to forget that it's a new house so maybe we can too.)
But before taking that route it behooves me to explore the other option which is to find a way to move SSR and WLR to before DSSS#61. The immediate obstacle to this in Silver Surfer's current chronology is Strange's astral visit in IH2#414. I stand by my reasoning that SSR happens after SS3@7, but I believe that for Surfer SS3@7 and IH2#414-416 can be swapped round leaving the possibility of putting SSR and WLR before IH2#414 as well. IH2#414-416 provide *no* evidence for positioning themselves in SS's chronology. SS3@7 has a limited cast which only places it after the Cosmic Powers series and for Surfer's own chronology it is agnostic.
But there is a more difficult problem. In SS3@7 Legacy refers to getting revenge on Nitro for his father's death in SECDEF#14 (alongside Surfer in his app previous to IH2#414-416/SS@7). But in SECDEF#11 Dr Strange makes an astral app in the ruins of his Sanctum. And #11 starts the Thanos storyline which runs through #11-14 and which definitely precedes Cosmic Powers, which in turn is stated to precede SS3@7.
However there is a possible way round this because the scene in SECDEF#11(18-22) with Thanos (and Geatar) is totally disconnected from the rest of the issue. The main 1-issue plot concerns some heroes dealing with an an alien robot left on Earth during the Starblast event. So that main part could theoretically occur later than the Thanos story in #11-14. And SECDEF#11 is currently listed as Dr Strange's 1st app after DSSS#61 so with that dealt with we'd be home free.
By logically moving only SECDEF#11(18-22)-14, Q#59, CP#1-6, SS3@7(with /2-FB and /2), M/CP#172-175, CLAN#1-3 and SSR#1-5 to before SECDEF#11(1-17) and IH2#414-416 we only potentially change the chronologies of the limited set of chars in those issues.
The only actual effect (before adding WLR containing Dr Strange) is for Silver Surfer moving IH2#414-416. The chars in SECEDEF#11 have been split into 2 groups each in different parts of the issue, but we don't reflect such a thing and list them all as occupying the whole issue. And the split doesn't move either part of the issue out of range of their current before and afters.
However there are 2 more problems with this approach. 1 minor and solvable. The other more nebulous.
The 1st concerns Q#59 which only features Quasar, Eros, Thanos and ISAAC the computer. For Quasar this stand-alone fill-in issue is set after #60, the end of his series, when he's left Earth 'permanently' for space. Q#57-58,60 tidied up stuff after the Starblast event. Nova appeared in #60 after his Starblast app in SECDEF#11(1-17), which included the astral app of DrS. Thus Q#59 is set in or after Strange's pocket dimension period. But Thanos has it between SECDEF#14 and CP#1-6 which I have just forced to be before that period. So I'd have to move Q#59 for Thanos later, after SSR and WLR. I believe I can do that without affecting the other chars.
My other concern is with the Starblast event itself. STARBLAST#1 and Q#54 coincide with WLOCKC#6 at the start of the Blood And Thunder event where DrS is in his classic costume. SECDEF#11(1-17) is in DrS's pocket dimension period. But that (main part of the) issue is part 3 of Starblast. Frank and michel's chronology (1993-1994: INFINITY CRUSADE to STARBLAST (Frank)) for this era has a long gap between STARBLAST#1/Q#54 and the rest of Starblast wherein to fit Blood & Thunder and the Midnight Suns lead up to DSSS#61, amongst other things. So I guess I'm just loading more stuff in that gap, from SECDEF#11(18-22) to CLAN#1-3 plus the new SSR and WLR.
In fact they leave DSSS#61 into the next post-Starblast chronology section (1994: STARBLAST to FUTURE IMPERFECT (Frank/Michel)), along with Q#57-60. Which means they also put SECDEF#11-14 there, thus taking SECDEF#11(1-17) out of the middle of Starblast. More evidence of the tangled minefield that is the Marvel 1990's! Still Nova does say in that issue that he's dealing with a robot the Starblast aliens left behind, so it could be read as happening after Starblast rather than just after Q#54 when a bunch of heroes (not including Nova) followed those aliens into space.
There also remains the question of how happy we are about moving SECDEF#11(18-22)-14 to before SECDEF#11(1-17). I might point out that SECDEF#11(18-22)-14 is anomalous in that it features a team of villains organised by Thanos whereas the previous issues up to and including SECDEF#11(1-17) have heroes organised by Dr Strange, and the succeeding issues will have heroes organised and led by DrS's appointee Dr Druid.
The other factor to be considered is how WLR fits into the Infinity Watch chronology. From the Watch it mainly only involves Adam Warlock, Gamora and Pip. Drax and Moondragon pop in at then end of #5 having missed it all. In #1 Gamora says those 2 are just "off somewhere". She also says that she herself has just returned from a solo mission in space, which doesn't match with anything in her chronology. Maxam isn't mentioned even though he's present all through to the end in #42.
But Gamora quits the Watch in #41. And Moondragon is severely injured in #39 and after that she's bed-ridden and can only act by taking over Drax's body. As mentioned before #36 is set within the DrS pocket dimension era. That just leaves somewhere between #36 and #39 to insert WLR in that later era. #37-39 are 1 story that ends with Moondragon's injury. But #36 is a stand-alone tale so we could insert WLR between #36 and #37.
At the other end of the scale WLR could go neatly between #25 in Blood & Thunder and #26-33 the Avengers/Count Abyss saga.
So in the end it comes down to a choice between simply assuming the Ron's Marz & Lim got Dr Strange's costume wrong or doing some fairly minor changes to the chronologies of Silver Surfer and Thanos but which have a large effect on the Frank and michel's global chronologies and do some unusual juggling with SECDEF.
I'm currently undecided which way to jump. I'll take a while to think about it. If anyone has any opinions please chip in.
Warlock: Rebirth
Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb
-
Midnighter
- Chronology Guru
- Posts: 731
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am
- Location: Venice, Italy
- Contact:
Re: Warlock: Rebirth
Argh, as soon as you approach Starblast, a can of worms opens up....
I would be more in favor of changing the sequence within Secret Defenders, going to mess up a bit more a context that itself was already born messy, rather than further complicating Dr. Strange's chronology and ignoring some explicit elements of this miniseries.
In addition to Strange's appearance, the place to which Pip teleports should definitely be the Sanctum Sanctorum (it is clearly seen from both inside and outside in issue #2). place to which Pip teleports should definitely be the Sanctum Sanctorum (it is clearly seen from both inside and outside in issue #2).
Of course, all this is hoping that Silver Surfer Rebirth: Legacy, which takes place immediately after WLR, does not mess things up further.
I would be more in favor of changing the sequence within Secret Defenders, going to mess up a bit more a context that itself was already born messy, rather than further complicating Dr. Strange's chronology and ignoring some explicit elements of this miniseries.
In addition to Strange's appearance, the place to which Pip teleports should definitely be the Sanctum Sanctorum (it is clearly seen from both inside and outside in issue #2). place to which Pip teleports should definitely be the Sanctum Sanctorum (it is clearly seen from both inside and outside in issue #2).
Of course, all this is hoping that Silver Surfer Rebirth: Legacy, which takes place immediately after WLR, does not mess things up further.
Re: Warlock: Rebirth
Warlock: Rebirth, like Ron Marz' preceding mini-series and indeed like most of the issues he wrote, has a limited cast of chars worth tracking.
#1 Legacy, Adam Warlock, Gamora, Pip, Eve Warlock, Goom
#2 L, AW, G, P, EW, High Evolutionary, Dr Strange, Kray-Tor, Autolycus, Orb
#3 L, AW, G, P, EW, HE, DS, Kray-Tor, Autolycus, Orb
#4 L, AW, G, P, EW, HE, DS, Daredevil, Spider-Man
#5 L, AW, G, P, EW, HE, DS, Drax, Moondragon, Silver Surfer
So it has the central core of Legacy, Adam Warlock, Gamora, Pip, Eve Warlock, High Evolutionary, Dr Strange.
With guest apps by Goom, Kray-Tor, Autolycus, Orb, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Drax, Moondragon, Silver Surfer.
Eve Warlock is created for this series and obviously has no other apps, despite the fact that she survives and leaves pursuing High Evolutionary.
Silver Surfer turns up at the very end to take Legacy into Ron's 3rd mini-series Silver Surfer Rebirth: Legacy.
Drax and Moonndragon also turn up at the end but their apps will fit wherever the rest of the Infinity Watch do.
Daredevil and Spider-Man just have a random chat at the beginning of #4 and decide not to get involved.
Goom is just 1 of Monster Isle's inhabitants with very limited apps.
Kray-Tor and Autolycus are inhabitants of Soul World. Kray-Tor does seem more belligerent than the others in defending the place but I don't think this indicates that this occurs after what happens to him in Warlock & Infinity Watch #33, after which he kept apart from the others. This adds weight to the view that this happens earlier rather than later in the relevant period, specifically before WLOCK&TIW#26-33.
There is a char in #2-3 shown in Soul World who has an eyeball for a head. Marvel Fandom Wiki lists him as The Orb but I believe they are mistaken. He's never been in Soul World and has never met Warlock in order to get there. I suspect that this char and many other inhabitants of Soul World are minions of Magus slain in that original storyline. Indeed I think such a char was seen among the minions at the end of Warlock #10 and the beginning of #11.
High Evolutionary can probably be made to fit anywhere in his chronology. I don't believe he has any other apps with a base on the Moon of what used to be Counter-Earth. Not even when he created that planet.
I'm going to try to implement my suggestion of having Ron's new series set before Dr Strange got trapped in a pocket dimension in DSSS#61.
Obviously I'm going to take as read my placement of SSR#1-5 in Silver Surfer Rebirth.
Arguments already rehearsed place this series after Silver Surfer: Rebirth, which in turn has to be after the Cosmic Powers mini-series which is placed after the Blood & Thunder crossover. This makes the placement for the Infinity Watch chars easy.
WARLOCK II/ADAM WARLOCK
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
GAMORA | EARTH-7528
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
PIP/PRINCE GOFERN
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS/"H.D. STECKLEY"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
And I'll just create a totally new char here.
EVE WARLOCK
WLR 1
WLR 2
WLR 3
WLR 4
WLR 5
I've already discussed the necessary changes for Silver Surfer and Thanos.
Thanos isn't involved in this mini-series but there is the change to his chronology necessary to make WLR fit before DSSS#61.
THANOS
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
SECDEF 11-13
Q 59 moved from here
CP 1-6
SSR 1-5
Q 59 moved to here
SS3 98
CPU 1
----
Note that as mentioned in the 1st post we don't have to specifically mention that SECDEF#11 refers only to (18-22).
There are only 3 other chars in Q#59. The chronologies of Quasar and Isaac the Titanian computer are unaffected. But I need to change Eros in line with his brother Thanos.
STARFOX/EROS
----
IC 6
SECDEF 14
Q 59 moved from here
CP 4
SS@ 7/2-FB
Q 59 moved to here (after Legacy's app above)
A/ULTRAF
ULTRAF/A
----
But Q 59 is actually staying where it is and we are really moving CP, SSR and SS@7/2-FB earlier, and even SECDEF#11-14. Because of this the following apps in any issue will remain the same and we only have to worry about overrunning previous apps.
In SECDEF#11(18-22) there are only Thanos and Geatar and they're OK.
SECDEF#12-14 add Nitro, Rhino, Super Skrull and Titanium Man. Super Skrull was last within Blood & Thunder and Nitro and Titanium Man were last seen before Infinity Crusade, so they're OK. But Rhino is a problem because his current previous apps in LFSM are after DSSS#61 for Spider-Man. So I have to make an adjustment.
RHINO/ALEKSEI MIKHAILOVICH SYTSEVICH/"ALEX O'HIRN"
----
CA 414
AF 121 (before Infinity Crusade)
SECDEF 12-14 move to here
LFSM 1-4
SECDEF 12-14 move from here
SMU 4/3
NO2 10
----
The CP and SSR series and SS@7/2 only involve cosmic chars whose chronologies aren't affected, except for a change to Silver Surfer already discussed in the 1st post.
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
----
SECDEF 14
IH2 414-416 moved from here
SS@ 7
M/CP 172/3
M/CP 173
M/CP 174/3
M/CP 175/2
CLAN 1-3
SSR 1-5
WLR 5 added
IH2 414-416 moved to here
IH2 417-418
SS3 93
----
Again I'm not really moving the Hulk issues but the Surfer ones. The CLAN issues aren't affected because the ClanDestine keep to themselves apart from SS's app. The M/CP issues just involve Lunatik and Skreet who also don't present a problem.
There's a possibility that Galactus might need a tinker. He currently has:-
----
WLOCK&TIW 19
XCAL 61
SS@ 7
SS3 102
----
WLOCK&TIW#19 is part of Infinity Crusade and so is still safely before SS@7. But the question is have I moved SS@7 back before XCAL#61? In the sequence that begins with that issue Excalibur keep to their own part of the Marvelverse so it's difficult to say. But I notice that Frank & michel's global chronologies have XCAL#61 ff *before* IC. So I can safely assume it's still before SS@7 and leave Galactus' chronology unchanged.
Legacy just needs WLR inserted after SSR.
LEGACY/GENIS-VELL
----
SECDEF 14
CP 3-6
SS@ 7
SS@ 7/2-FB
SS@ 7/2
SSR 1
SSR 5
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
SS3 105
----
High Evolutionary's current local chronology is:-
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM
----
T 473 (10:3 - 12)-FB
WLOCK&TIW 3-4
T 448/2-BTS
T 449/2
T 450/2
T 473 (13 - 17:2)-FB
T 472-477
----
His app with Warlock here is definitely later than WLOCK&TIW#3-4. T#471 ended the Blood & Thunder event. The backups in T#448-450 occur before that. So WLR will be later than them. T#473(13-17:2)-FB tells how he returned to the Solar System after his galactic adventures in eg the T#448-450 backups, so his apps here should be after that. For Thor T#472 is in 2 parts. The 1st shows *him* returning to Earth. Then he has some other adventures before the 2nd part starts his getting involved with High Evolutionary. So I'd put WLR between T#473(13-17:2)-FB and *HE's* part of T#472.
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM
----
T 473 (10:3 - 12)-FB
WLOCK&TIW 3-4
T 448/2-BTS
T 449/2
T 450/2
T 473 (13 - 17:2)-FB
WLR 2-4 added
T 472-477
----
And now to the guy who caused all the trouble.
Dr Strange's current chronology has:-
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
I looked to Frank & michel's overall chronologies for a suggestion as to where to insert WRL. I found that:-
(1993-1994: INFINITY CRUSADE to STARBLAST (Frank)) has GR3#44 to NS#15 all very close together and very soon after T#471. It then has a long run of other stuff which extends to the end of that chronology ...
... and a long way into (1994: STARBLAST to FUTURE IMPERFECT (Frank/Michel)) which has M/CP#145/2 to the whole of DSSS#61 all together.
So I'll put WRL in that gap.
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
WRL 2-5 added
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
----
At least Ron seems to have remembered that at this time DrS couldn't invoke the Vishanti or their components Agamotto, Hoggoth or Oshtur. Strange (or Ron) only nearly slips up once. In #3 he says "By the Hoary Hosts this shall not stand", safely omitting the usual "of Hoggoth". He does do the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak which is OK.
That leaves me with the cameo apps:-
Gooom has:-
TOS 15
M/VAL SPEC /3
NFHC 2
NFHC 4
----
TOS#15 is much earlier than the 1994 target era for the current events and NFHC is definitely later, but there's a question over M/VAL SPEC /3. This was published in 1997 but the story's central char Venus says it's 40 years since she last saw her love Whitney Hammond whose last app was in 1952, which would make the current date 1992 and so earlier than Goom's app in WLR. And anyway the Marvel Sliding Timescale will have extended the gap. So I'll plump for:-
GOOM
TOS 15
M/VAL SPEC /3
WRL 1 added
NFHC 2
NFHC 4
----
Kray-Tor and Autolycus are easily positioned:-
JUDGE KRAY-TOR
----
IW 6
IC 4
WRL 2-3 added
WLOCK&TIW 32
WLOCK&TIW 37
AUTOLYCUS
----
IC 4
IC 6
WRL 2-3 added
WLOCK&TIW 33
That leaves Spider-Man and Daredevil:-
Spider-Man has a definite restricted range in his chronology between Infinity Crusade and DSSS#61 that his app can exist in:-
----
IC 6
SMF2 8
ASM 381-382
M/CP 138/4
SM 38-40
WM2 28-29
SSM@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1-3
M/HOL 1993
SM HSPEC /5-FB
SSM 204-206
SSM 207 (1 - 9)
Q 60
DSSS 61
----
I looked again to the overall chronologies for pointers. It turned out that everything up to M/HOL 1993 have been placed before DSSS#57-59 which are before Blood & Thunder. And following that to SSM#207(1-9) before SS3#89-92 which are before SS@7. Then there's a long gap before Q#60 and DSSS#61 in the next section of chronology which would seem to be the place to put WLR.
However SSM#207(1-9) shows DrS's mansion has just been destroyed, which actually happened in DSSS#60, so it occurs between #60 and #61. But WLR needs the Sanctum intact, so I need to have have SSM#207(1-9) after WLR (and hence after SS@7). Luckily that issue can be separated from SSM#204-206. In that story Flash Thompson gets severely injured by Tombstone. In SSM#207(1-9) Peter Parker visits Flash in hospital already recovering.
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
----
IC 6
SMF2 8
ASM 381-382
M/CP 138/4
SM 38-40
WM2 28-29
SSM@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1-3
M/HOL 1993
SM HSPEC /5-FB
SSM 204-206
WRL 4 added
SSM 207 (1 - 9)
Q 60
DSSS 61
----
Daredevil is even more constrained because he appears here in his standard costume, but in #321-344 he wears a different costume.
So he's limited to:-
----
IC 6
DD 317-318
DD@ 9
DD@ 9/2
M/CP 136/4-BTS
DD 380-FB
DD 380
DD 319
DD 320 (1 - 20)
DD:FFG (53)
DD 320 (21 - 23)
DD 321
----
Again the overall chronology has up to M/CP#136/4-BTS before Blood & Thunder, and DD#319 ff after DSSS#61. So WLR has to go between M/CP#136/4-BTS and DD#319.
DD#380 and its -FB are a problem. That is the last issue of DD vol 1. The overall chronologies (a long way ahead) have it in place later than DD#379, and so of course they don't give any clue as to how it fits in here. But MCP has DD and all the other chars back here. The comic itself says it's a tale from the past, and it's by D G Chichester who wrote DD over this whole period. Bullseye discrepancy explains why it was placed here, but also sees it as a lead-in to #319 rather than as following from the previous issues. So that nudges me to put WLR before DD#380.
DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
----
IC 6
DD 317-318
DD@ 9
DD@ 9/2
M/CP 136/4-BTS
WRL 4 added
DD 380-FB
DD 380
DD 319
DD 320 (1 - 20)
DD:FFG (53)
DD 320 (21 - 23)
DD 321
----
#1 Legacy, Adam Warlock, Gamora, Pip, Eve Warlock, Goom
#2 L, AW, G, P, EW, High Evolutionary, Dr Strange, Kray-Tor, Autolycus, Orb
#3 L, AW, G, P, EW, HE, DS, Kray-Tor, Autolycus, Orb
#4 L, AW, G, P, EW, HE, DS, Daredevil, Spider-Man
#5 L, AW, G, P, EW, HE, DS, Drax, Moondragon, Silver Surfer
So it has the central core of Legacy, Adam Warlock, Gamora, Pip, Eve Warlock, High Evolutionary, Dr Strange.
With guest apps by Goom, Kray-Tor, Autolycus, Orb, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Drax, Moondragon, Silver Surfer.
Eve Warlock is created for this series and obviously has no other apps, despite the fact that she survives and leaves pursuing High Evolutionary.
Silver Surfer turns up at the very end to take Legacy into Ron's 3rd mini-series Silver Surfer Rebirth: Legacy.
Drax and Moonndragon also turn up at the end but their apps will fit wherever the rest of the Infinity Watch do.
Daredevil and Spider-Man just have a random chat at the beginning of #4 and decide not to get involved.
Goom is just 1 of Monster Isle's inhabitants with very limited apps.
Kray-Tor and Autolycus are inhabitants of Soul World. Kray-Tor does seem more belligerent than the others in defending the place but I don't think this indicates that this occurs after what happens to him in Warlock & Infinity Watch #33, after which he kept apart from the others. This adds weight to the view that this happens earlier rather than later in the relevant period, specifically before WLOCK&TIW#26-33.
There is a char in #2-3 shown in Soul World who has an eyeball for a head. Marvel Fandom Wiki lists him as The Orb but I believe they are mistaken. He's never been in Soul World and has never met Warlock in order to get there. I suspect that this char and many other inhabitants of Soul World are minions of Magus slain in that original storyline. Indeed I think such a char was seen among the minions at the end of Warlock #10 and the beginning of #11.
High Evolutionary can probably be made to fit anywhere in his chronology. I don't believe he has any other apps with a base on the Moon of what used to be Counter-Earth. Not even when he created that planet.
I'm going to try to implement my suggestion of having Ron's new series set before Dr Strange got trapped in a pocket dimension in DSSS#61.
Obviously I'm going to take as read my placement of SSR#1-5 in Silver Surfer Rebirth.
Arguments already rehearsed place this series after Silver Surfer: Rebirth, which in turn has to be after the Cosmic Powers mini-series which is placed after the Blood & Thunder crossover. This makes the placement for the Infinity Watch chars easy.
WARLOCK II/ADAM WARLOCK
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
GAMORA | EARTH-7528
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
PIP/PRINCE GOFERN
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
DRAX/ARTHUR DOUGLAS
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS/"H.D. STECKLEY"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WLR 5 added
WLOCK&TIW 26
WLOCK&TIW 27
----
And I'll just create a totally new char here.
EVE WARLOCK
WLR 1
WLR 2
WLR 3
WLR 4
WLR 5
I've already discussed the necessary changes for Silver Surfer and Thanos.
Thanos isn't involved in this mini-series but there is the change to his chronology necessary to make WLR fit before DSSS#61.
THANOS
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
SECDEF 11-13
Q 59 moved from here
CP 1-6
SSR 1-5
Q 59 moved to here
SS3 98
CPU 1
----
Note that as mentioned in the 1st post we don't have to specifically mention that SECDEF#11 refers only to (18-22).
There are only 3 other chars in Q#59. The chronologies of Quasar and Isaac the Titanian computer are unaffected. But I need to change Eros in line with his brother Thanos.
STARFOX/EROS
----
IC 6
SECDEF 14
Q 59 moved from here
CP 4
SS@ 7/2-FB
Q 59 moved to here (after Legacy's app above)
A/ULTRAF
ULTRAF/A
----
But Q 59 is actually staying where it is and we are really moving CP, SSR and SS@7/2-FB earlier, and even SECDEF#11-14. Because of this the following apps in any issue will remain the same and we only have to worry about overrunning previous apps.
In SECDEF#11(18-22) there are only Thanos and Geatar and they're OK.
SECDEF#12-14 add Nitro, Rhino, Super Skrull and Titanium Man. Super Skrull was last within Blood & Thunder and Nitro and Titanium Man were last seen before Infinity Crusade, so they're OK. But Rhino is a problem because his current previous apps in LFSM are after DSSS#61 for Spider-Man. So I have to make an adjustment.
RHINO/ALEKSEI MIKHAILOVICH SYTSEVICH/"ALEX O'HIRN"
----
CA 414
AF 121 (before Infinity Crusade)
SECDEF 12-14 move to here
LFSM 1-4
SECDEF 12-14 move from here
SMU 4/3
NO2 10
----
The CP and SSR series and SS@7/2 only involve cosmic chars whose chronologies aren't affected, except for a change to Silver Surfer already discussed in the 1st post.
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
----
SECDEF 14
IH2 414-416 moved from here
SS@ 7
M/CP 172/3
M/CP 173
M/CP 174/3
M/CP 175/2
CLAN 1-3
SSR 1-5
WLR 5 added
IH2 414-416 moved to here
IH2 417-418
SS3 93
----
Again I'm not really moving the Hulk issues but the Surfer ones. The CLAN issues aren't affected because the ClanDestine keep to themselves apart from SS's app. The M/CP issues just involve Lunatik and Skreet who also don't present a problem.
There's a possibility that Galactus might need a tinker. He currently has:-
----
WLOCK&TIW 19
XCAL 61
SS@ 7
SS3 102
----
WLOCK&TIW#19 is part of Infinity Crusade and so is still safely before SS@7. But the question is have I moved SS@7 back before XCAL#61? In the sequence that begins with that issue Excalibur keep to their own part of the Marvelverse so it's difficult to say. But I notice that Frank & michel's global chronologies have XCAL#61 ff *before* IC. So I can safely assume it's still before SS@7 and leave Galactus' chronology unchanged.
Legacy just needs WLR inserted after SSR.
LEGACY/GENIS-VELL
----
SECDEF 14
CP 3-6
SS@ 7
SS@ 7/2-FB
SS@ 7/2
SSR 1
SSR 5
WLR 1 added
WLR 2 added
WLR 3 added
WLR 4 added
WLR 5 added
SS3 105
----
High Evolutionary's current local chronology is:-
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM
----
T 473 (10:3 - 12)-FB
WLOCK&TIW 3-4
T 448/2-BTS
T 449/2
T 450/2
T 473 (13 - 17:2)-FB
T 472-477
----
His app with Warlock here is definitely later than WLOCK&TIW#3-4. T#471 ended the Blood & Thunder event. The backups in T#448-450 occur before that. So WLR will be later than them. T#473(13-17:2)-FB tells how he returned to the Solar System after his galactic adventures in eg the T#448-450 backups, so his apps here should be after that. For Thor T#472 is in 2 parts. The 1st shows *him* returning to Earth. Then he has some other adventures before the 2nd part starts his getting involved with High Evolutionary. So I'd put WLR between T#473(13-17:2)-FB and *HE's* part of T#472.
HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM
----
T 473 (10:3 - 12)-FB
WLOCK&TIW 3-4
T 448/2-BTS
T 449/2
T 450/2
T 473 (13 - 17:2)-FB
WLR 2-4 added
T 472-477
----
And now to the guy who caused all the trouble.
Dr Strange's current chronology has:-
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
I looked to Frank & michel's overall chronologies for a suggestion as to where to insert WRL. I found that:-
(1993-1994: INFINITY CRUSADE to STARBLAST (Frank)) has GR3#44 to NS#15 all very close together and very soon after T#471. It then has a long run of other stuff which extends to the end of that chronology ...
... and a long way into (1994: STARBLAST to FUTURE IMPERFECT (Frank/Michel)) which has M/CP#145/2 to the whole of DSSS#61 all together.
So I'll put WRL in that gap.
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
WRL 2-5 added
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
----
At least Ron seems to have remembered that at this time DrS couldn't invoke the Vishanti or their components Agamotto, Hoggoth or Oshtur. Strange (or Ron) only nearly slips up once. In #3 he says "By the Hoary Hosts this shall not stand", safely omitting the usual "of Hoggoth". He does do the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak which is OK.
That leaves me with the cameo apps:-
Gooom has:-
TOS 15
M/VAL SPEC /3
NFHC 2
NFHC 4
----
TOS#15 is much earlier than the 1994 target era for the current events and NFHC is definitely later, but there's a question over M/VAL SPEC /3. This was published in 1997 but the story's central char Venus says it's 40 years since she last saw her love Whitney Hammond whose last app was in 1952, which would make the current date 1992 and so earlier than Goom's app in WLR. And anyway the Marvel Sliding Timescale will have extended the gap. So I'll plump for:-
GOOM
TOS 15
M/VAL SPEC /3
WRL 1 added
NFHC 2
NFHC 4
----
Kray-Tor and Autolycus are easily positioned:-
JUDGE KRAY-TOR
----
IW 6
IC 4
WRL 2-3 added
WLOCK&TIW 32
WLOCK&TIW 37
AUTOLYCUS
----
IC 4
IC 6
WRL 2-3 added
WLOCK&TIW 33
That leaves Spider-Man and Daredevil:-
Spider-Man has a definite restricted range in his chronology between Infinity Crusade and DSSS#61 that his app can exist in:-
----
IC 6
SMF2 8
ASM 381-382
M/CP 138/4
SM 38-40
WM2 28-29
SSM@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1-3
M/HOL 1993
SM HSPEC /5-FB
SSM 204-206
SSM 207 (1 - 9)
Q 60
DSSS 61
----
I looked again to the overall chronologies for pointers. It turned out that everything up to M/HOL 1993 have been placed before DSSS#57-59 which are before Blood & Thunder. And following that to SSM#207(1-9) before SS3#89-92 which are before SS@7. Then there's a long gap before Q#60 and DSSS#61 in the next section of chronology which would seem to be the place to put WLR.
However SSM#207(1-9) shows DrS's mansion has just been destroyed, which actually happened in DSSS#60, so it occurs between #60 and #61. But WLR needs the Sanctum intact, so I need to have have SSM#207(1-9) after WLR (and hence after SS@7). Luckily that issue can be separated from SSM#204-206. In that story Flash Thompson gets severely injured by Tombstone. In SSM#207(1-9) Peter Parker visits Flash in hospital already recovering.
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
----
IC 6
SMF2 8
ASM 381-382
M/CP 138/4
SM 38-40
WM2 28-29
SSM@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1-3
M/HOL 1993
SM HSPEC /5-FB
SSM 204-206
WRL 4 added
SSM 207 (1 - 9)
Q 60
DSSS 61
----
Daredevil is even more constrained because he appears here in his standard costume, but in #321-344 he wears a different costume.
So he's limited to:-
----
IC 6
DD 317-318
DD@ 9
DD@ 9/2
M/CP 136/4-BTS
DD 380-FB
DD 380
DD 319
DD 320 (1 - 20)
DD:FFG (53)
DD 320 (21 - 23)
DD 321
----
Again the overall chronology has up to M/CP#136/4-BTS before Blood & Thunder, and DD#319 ff after DSSS#61. So WLR has to go between M/CP#136/4-BTS and DD#319.
DD#380 and its -FB are a problem. That is the last issue of DD vol 1. The overall chronologies (a long way ahead) have it in place later than DD#379, and so of course they don't give any clue as to how it fits in here. But MCP has DD and all the other chars back here. The comic itself says it's a tale from the past, and it's by D G Chichester who wrote DD over this whole period. Bullseye discrepancy explains why it was placed here, but also sees it as a lead-in to #319 rather than as following from the previous issues. So that nudges me to put WLR before DD#380.
DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
----
IC 6
DD 317-318
DD@ 9
DD@ 9/2
M/CP 136/4-BTS
WRL 4 added
DD 380-FB
DD 380
DD 319
DD 320 (1 - 20)
DD:FFG (53)
DD 320 (21 - 23)
DD 321
----
-
Midnighter
- Chronology Guru
- Posts: 731
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am
- Location: Venice, Italy
- Contact:
Re: Warlock: Rebirth
A little spoiler for Silver Surfer Rebirth: Legacy #1:
Spoiler:
Re: Warlock: Rebirth
Spoiler:
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
----
SECDEF 14
IH2 414-416 moved from here
SS@ 7
M/CP 172/3
M/CP 173
M/CP 174/3
M/CP 175/2
CLAN 1-3
SSR 1-5
IH2 414-416 moved to here
IH2 417-418
SS3 93
----
I also need to add WLR#5 to Mephisto's chronology. Let's see where he's been:-
----
IC 6
AWC 99-100
A@ 23-BTS
T@ 19-BTS
M/HOL 1993
SOV 7-9
GR3 39
IH2 418
----
The field is fairly narrow. We've already established that WLR is after IC#6 and before IH2#418. Also Spider-Man has M/HOL 1993 before WLR. So I'm left to look into SOV#7-9 and GR3#39. Confusingly the overall chronologies put these issues well *before* Infinity Crusade! However the GR3 and SOV titles seem a mainly self-contained pair for a long run around here and it's difficult to say definitively who's right. But I'm going to assume that whatever the 'reality' is these issues lie early rather than late in the local chronology so I'm going to put WLR after them.
MEPHISTO
----
IC 6
AWC 99-100
A@ 23-BTS
T@ 19-BTS
M/HOL 1993
SOV 7-9
GR3 39
WLR 5 | see SSRL 1 added
IH2 418
----
Re: Warlock: Rebirth
There's a bigger mistake I need to correct in Dr Strange's chronology.
My proposal was:-
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
WRL 2-5 added
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
----
But my left brain obviously didn't know what my right brain was doing. Earlier (when sorting out Spider-Man's chronology) I noted that the Sanctum Sanctorum got destroyed in DSSS#60. Now I've put WRL in Dr Strange's chronology before DSSS#61 where he gets trapped in a pocket dimension. But I obviously forgot that WRL needs the Sanctum intact too so it needs to be before DSSS#60 as well. And GR3#44 to DSSS#60 are an unbroken sequence of battle, including in GR3#44 DrS inviting the Midnight Sons to use his Sanctum as a base for the fight. Therefore I have to put WRL before GR3#44.
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WRL 2-5 added
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
----
While I'm here I'll just throw in a little extra bit. Spider-Man has a cameo app in WLR#2 so I'll add that to his #4 app.
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
----
IC 6
SMF2 8
ASM 381-382
M/CP 138/4
SM 38-40
WM2 28-29
SSM@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1-3
M/HOL 1993
SM HSPEC /5-FB
SSM 204-206
WRL 2 added
WRL 4 added
SSM 207 (1 - 9)
Q 60
DSSS 61
----
My proposal was:-
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
WRL 2-5 added
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
----
But my left brain obviously didn't know what my right brain was doing. Earlier (when sorting out Spider-Man's chronology) I noted that the Sanctum Sanctorum got destroyed in DSSS#60. Now I've put WRL in Dr Strange's chronology before DSSS#61 where he gets trapped in a pocket dimension. But I obviously forgot that WRL needs the Sanctum intact too so it needs to be before DSSS#60 as well. And GR3#44 to DSSS#60 are an unbroken sequence of battle, including in GR3#44 DrS inviting the Midnight Sons to use his Sanctum as a base for the fight. Therefore I have to put WRL before GR3#44.
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
----
WLOCK&TIW 25
T 471
WRL 2-5 added
GR3 44
M/CP 143
DHOLD 15
MORB:LV 16
DSSS 60
SOV 17
NS 15
M/CP 145/2
M/CP 146/3
DSSS 61 (1 - 13)
DSSS@ 4-FB
DSSS 61 (14 - 22)
SECDEF 11
----
While I'm here I'll just throw in a little extra bit. Spider-Man has a cameo app in WLR#2 so I'll add that to his #4 app.
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
----
IC 6
SMF2 8
ASM 381-382
M/CP 138/4
SM 38-40
WM2 28-29
SSM@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1-3
M/HOL 1993
SM HSPEC /5-FB
SSM 204-206
WRL 2 added
WRL 4 added
SSM 207 (1 - 9)
Q 60
DSSS 61
----