The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb

Midnighter
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am
Location: Venice, Italy
Contact:

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Midnighter »

The latest episode of Marvel's Voices Unlimited, which introduces Kid Juggernaut, is likely to be a hot mess from a continuity standpoint.
There is the presence of the original five X-Men and Professor X, in the Krakoan period (besides the costumes it is highlighted by a poster of a Luna Snow concert live from Krakoa). Although previous episodes of this serial ("Unlike any other") seemed likely to take place post-Krakoa (particularly the Escapade episode), this one should take place well before the third Hellfire Gala.
Jean is wearing the costume post-second Hellfire Gala, Beast is on friendly terms with everyone so he has not yet been killed by Wolverine, and more generally the X-Men are moving through Vancouver without any problems.
Later Kid Juggernaut makes contact with Carol Danvers (who wears the costume that made her debut at the last Hellfire Gala) to join the new Avengers Academy, but we have to assume that it was actually quite some time from his conversation with Xavier (before Fall of X) to his meeting with Captain Marvel (at the same time as the recruitment of all the other young heroes seen in the previous episodes).
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Clive_Reston »

I agree that it might well be a mess, but I think it's likely to be post-Krakoa again. The Luna Snow poster is in our protagonist's bedroom rather than on a public wall (and could well have been there for a very long time), mutants have the prerogative to wear their old costumes when they feel like it ("mutant fashion"), Beast is (or may be) the friendly New Defenders-period Beast as of the end of X-Force #50... Xavier hanging out with the O5 X-Men is a little weird, given what's going on in other titles, but we'll see where that goes.

As for other titles this week: Wolverine #49 and X-Men Forever #3 are right after the previous issues of their respective series, no surprises there. Giant-Size X-Men #1 (the Angel one; would it have killed them to add a subtitle?) is during the Fall of X period--after the '23 Gala, but sometime during the ten-week gap before Dark X-Men #1 (after which Angel is unavailable).

It is also one of two stories out the same day to make an "angel investor" joke! (And the backup feature is a reprint of MTIO #68; I'd have thought Marvel Fanfare #40 would be the obvious choice, but nope.)
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Michael »

Clive_Reston wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 am
As for other titles this week: Wolverine #49 and X-Men Forever #3 are right after the previous issues of their respective series, no surprises there.
What's complicated about X-Men Forever 3 is that Old Cable, Manifold and Nightcrawler literally teleport in whenever the plot requires and Emma is continuing her telepathic radio service that she's been providing throughout this crossover. Old Cable was last seen going to fight Orchis with Young Cable in Cable 4- presumably this takes place after that scene and Young Cable is fighting Orchis robots elsewhere. Manifold and Nightcrawler are difficult since at the end of Fall of the House of X 4 Manifold teleports the X-Men's craft into Sentinel City and Nightcrawler damages the machinery. So does this take place before or after the attack on Sentinel City? (It should be noted that the attack on Sentinel City SEEMS to take place concurrently with Apocalypse's appearance in Fall of the House of X 4 and therefore before Apocalypse's appearance in Rise of the Powers of X 4, which leads into X-Men Forever 2.)
As for Emma, she makes contact with Rachel in this issue. In X-Men 34, Emma is trying to kill Xavier because of his betrayal. Rachel knows Xavier's betrayal is part of the plan. So does Emma's appearance in this issue take after X-Men 34 or did Rachel simply not tell Emma about that part of the plan?
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Clive_Reston »

X-Men Forever 4 arrives the week after #3, and takes place immediately after it, during the time that Xavier is colluding with Nimrod. As for Michael's question about whether it's before or after X-Men #34, that hasn't been definitively answered yet, but note that 1) Emma is very cagey about what is to be done about Xavier, and 2) the plan specifically involves Enigma not finding out what's going on, which means that nobody who knows about it can speak it out loud, AND Enigma has to believe that the X-Men are really trying to kill Xavier.

Ms. Marvel: The Mutant Menace #3 takes place at a time when Kamala believes that Scott Summers is in Orchis custody, and is (despite its trade dress) definitely happening before Fall of the House of X--maybe (tentatively) somewhere around the time of the final X-Force and Wolverine storylines, circa the "many days later" break in the middle of Invincible Iron Man 14.

(The more I look at it, the tighter the timing for all of FotHoX/RotPoX gets; it seems to be happening in the course of a few days tops. As I discussed before, X-Men 30 must be an unmarked flashback that takes place before the final scene of X-Men 28. But then we get a whole string of contingencies: the Firestar scene in the second half of Invincible Iron Man 14 has to be shortly before the Firestar scene in X-Men 30, which then has to be followed in relatively short order by X-Men 28 (17-20) and 29, with 31 pretty soon after that, in which the green light is given for FotHoX 1's action to start. Meanwhile, X-Men Red 16-18 (and that story's follow-up, X-Men Unlimited Infinity Comic 118-120) have to be after X-Men 28's initial scene for Sunfire; Resurrection of Magneto 1-3 seems to start sometime after that but before the word comes to start the attack in FotHoX, and 4 is pretty shortly after those and leads directly into Invincible Iron Man 17-18.)
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Michael »

Also this week was X-Men Unlimited 139. The weird thing about it was that Khora was helping X-Corp. X-Men Unlimited 129-130 feature Gambit and Feint and seem to take place before Fall of the House of X 1. But Khora appears in Fall of the House of X 3, and she starts that story waiting to be teleported to Earth. It would be weird for Khora to travel to Earth before X-Men Unlimited 139, travel back to Mars before Fall of the House of X 3. and stand around waiting to be teleported back to Earth. So I guess that X-Men Unlimited 139 takes place after Fall of the House of X 3- presumably there's a gap between issues 130 and 131. Presumably Emma sensed X-Corp was having problems with Selene and had Illyana or Manifold teleport Khora to help them.
One other weird thing- at the end of X-Men Forever 4, Proteus seems to be trapped in the White Hot Room. But on page 3 of X-Men Forever 3, someone who looks like Iceman or Proteus seems to be fighting alongside the heroes against the Sentinels. And the last time we saw Bobby in his own series, he was trying to pull himself back together. So I guess it WAS iceman, Bobby recovered off panel and then followed Apocalypse off-panel to the site of the Sentinel battle?
Midnighter
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am
Location: Venice, Italy
Contact:

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Midnighter »

Michael wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 6:48 am But on page 3 of X-Men Forever 3, someone who looks like Iceman or Proteus seems to be fighting alongside the heroes against the Sentinels.
He could also be anyone else who has energy powers or the like.... Match? Rain Boy?
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Clive_Reston »

PHEW we're back!

The final phase of the Krakoa period is VERY intricately interconnected (and has already gotten one inserted subsequent small retcon). Here's what I've got, picking up midway through Fall of the House of X 3:

Magneto, having been briefed on what's up with Orchis, "as the resistance mobilizes," goes to "the closest Orchis facility." Then he fights a Stark Sentinel and gets a notification that Emma needs him to go help Tony. Presumably it takes him a while to get to Australia. (Resurrection of Magneto 4)

Tony fights Feilong in Australia "as the X-Men are launching their counterattack." (Invincible Iron Man 16)

Magik takes Cyclops and Alia Gregor to the Summer House on the Moon, then leaves, becasue she's being asked to help hunt for Dr. Devo. (FotHoX 3 19:1-2 --then there has to be a break here as Scott and Alia have a bite to eat, play a round or two of Scrabble, maybe practice yoga, etc.)

Reivers attack Callisto in Madripoor. Emma announces that Stasis is dead. Orchis finds Logan in the Morlock tunnels. Shadowkat shows up to help Callisto in Madripoor. Dr. Devo arrives in Madripoor and is greeted by the Emma/Forge/Logan/Synch/Ms. Marvel/Magik team. Ms. Marvel calls in the Latverian X-Men, who kill Dr. Devo. (X-Men 33 2-18)

Cyclops and Alia Gregor, in the Summer House, run into Nimrod, who kills her and talks about Sentinel City. (FotHoX 3 19:3 - 22)

Cyclops tells Emma, vis psychic transmission, that Alia is dead as Nimrod beats him up and leaves. He tells her "Sentinel City is rising." (X-Men 33 19-20)

Apocalypse wrecks a Stark Sentinel and rescues Krakoa. Magik arrives to rescue Cyclops just as Nimrod is fading out. (FotHoX 4 1-4)

Tony, who has been knocked unconscious, hallucinates and finally encounters Feilong. Feilong now knows that Orchis was using humans as pawns. Emma, with Forge, Logan, Magik, Ms. Marvel and Synch, has sent Magneto to help Tony. (IIM 17)

There has been some "chronal dilation," but Rachel's team has "only tried ten timelines" when the No-Place is attacked. (RotPoX 2 12-16)

Rachel's team, after some failures, manages to find and get readings off a moderately human Moira. (Dead X-Men 1)

By the time Rasputin saves them, Rachel's team has gotten what they need. Xavier heads off. Orchis's "human allies are crumbling"; Nimrod talks to Moira, and Enigma contacts her. (RotPoX 2 19-20)

Enigma talks with Moira. (RotPoX 3 4-5)

Rachel's team convinces her to let them chase the rogue Moira through other timelines as No-Place X starts being attacked again. (Dead X-Men 2)

No-Place X is being attacked again. (RotPoX 3 6-7)

During the attack, Rachel sends her team to even more timelines--by now Xavier's been gone only briefly, thanks to time dilation. (Dead X-Men 3)

Xavier prepares to kill young Moira. (RotPoX 3 8-9)

Rachel's team fights Moira, who is then one-shotted by Juggernaut. (Dead X-Men 4 1-14)

Rasputin finds out what's going on, tells Rachel, and goes through the portal. (RotPoX 3 10-11)

Rachel contacts her team in the White Hot Room and tells them what's up. (Dead X-Men 4 15-19)

Rasputin tries to stop Xavier from killing young Moira. (RotPoX 3 12-14)

Rachel talks Xavier out of it. (RotPoX 3 15 = Dead X-Men 4 20)

Xavier changes his mind, and he and Rasputin take off. Old Moira communicates with Enigma. Rasputin kills "Doug." Xavier shoots Rachel. (RotPoX 3 18-22)

Rasputin is horrified. Xavier stops her and frees Mother Righteous. (RotPoX 4 1-4)

Xavier speaks to the WHR team through the dissolving Mother Righteous. (X-Men Forever 2 1-3)

Xavier resurfaces on Pacific Krakoa with Mother Righteous. (RotPoX 4 5)

And now, a retcon/insert: after surfacing on Pacific Krakoa but before Orchis picks him up, Xavier learns about what's up with Sentinel City, and uses the human corpses on the island in Sinister's lab to speed-prep the Agnew crew, then transports them to Space Force and manipulates some minds as part of his plan. (X-Men: From the Ashes Infinity Comic 6 -FB)

Xavier talks to Karima. Rachel is resurrected in the WHR. (RotPoX 4 6-9)

Karima summons Nimrod to consider Xavier's offer. (FotHoX 4 5)

Karima gets "Sentinel-X" to do some more dirty work, which his later quasi-confession to Sally Floyd doesn't even mention. Moira talks further with Enigma. (RotPoX 4 10-13)

Sinister is resurrected in the WHR. (X-Men Forever 2 4-5)

Hope, Rachel, Sinister, Destiny and Exodus confer, then Rachel and Jean and Prodigy talk, and Exodus promises to remember Kafka. (X-Men Forever 2 6-14)

Nighttime in the WHR: The pyre for Jean is prepared. (RotPoX 4 14)

Apocalypse has a "Crucible" to restore Krakoa, as the sun's rays are focused on Earth. (FotHoX 4 6-9)

Apocalypse kills Wrongslide, in what have to be unlabeled flashback scenes. (FotHoX 4 16-17, 19 - FB)

On the Peak/Keep X, Emma and crew figure out what to do as Cyclops gets a message from Xavier, who blows up the Agnew. (FotHoX 4 10-13)

(Then: there must be a sneaky break after Scott says "it didn't have to be this way," while Manifold takes off to do some stuff.)

Daytime in the WHR: Hope briefs the troops (as Apocalypse is carrying Krakoa home, and Rasputin is unhappy that Sinister is there. (RotPoX 4 15-16)

Sinister buds flowers to transport the troops. (X-Men Forever 2 15-16)

Apocalypse reaches Krakoa as the flowers open. It's spring! (RotPoX 4 17-18)

Xavier talks with Karima, who tells him "your X-Men are attempting to destroy our solar weaponry aboard Sentinel City." Which they aren't yet, at least on panel, but maybe they're trying some other plans while Manifold is away? (RotPoX 4 19)

Exodus and Rachel kick ass on Krakoa. Mother Righteous talks to Enigma. (RotPoX 4 20-21)

The pyre is lit. (X-Men Forever 2 17-18)

The pyre is burning. (RotPoX 4 22)

The pyre goes kaboom. (X-Men Forever 2 19-20)

Krakoa wakes Doug up as the fight continues. We see Shaw Industries, and then Hope and Jean in the WHR. Manifold turns up on Krakoa, and transports Kurt and his parents; then Exodus takes them to the Arbor, and Manifold is having troubles, as Hope returns to the WHR. (X-Men Forever 3)

Various moments involving "Pacific Krakoa, between Sentinel attacks," Hope and Jean in the WHR some more, and Anchorage in the past. Manifold transports the Darkholme crew to see Sentinel-X/Xavier at an Orchis base (Karima is not present). (X-Men Forever 4)

[Presumably, somewhere in here Manifold returns to the SWORD station.]

Scott comes up with a plan, and tells Manifold to take Emma back to Earth. (FotHoX 4 14)

MODOK is doing bad things. Orchis attacks the Daily Bugle office. Emma is in the fight back on Earth. Kate tracks down Caliban. Logan has a confrontation with Kate in the rain. (X-Men 34)

Tony and Rhodey mop up the remainder of Orchis, after MODOK has done bad things to them. (Invincible Iron Man 19 1-17)

[Presumably, somewhere in here Manifold turns up and says "hey, Logan, can you leave this vengeance stuff to Kate and maybe Kamala and come join us for the big fight?" and brings him along to the SWORD station.]

Manifold teleports one of the SWORD stations into Sentinel City. There's a big fight for which Karima is present. Storm is on her way (FotHoX 4 17, 19-22)

Big fight continues. Nimrod punches Logan in Sentinel City. Another Nimrod fights Emma in NYC. Yet another fights Polaris and Magneto in Washington, DC. (FotHoX 5 1-3)

Nightcrawler and Cyclops et al. keep fighting in Sentinel City. Karima's Sentinel brain is fried blah blah focused totality. Storm shows up. Magnets, how do they work? Kate and Kamala fail to find Xavier. Manifold has a moment with Cyclops and Lactuca. Everybody gets back to Krakoa. Scott needs Jean to rise again. (FotHoX 5 4-22)

[CONTINUED...]
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Clive_Reston »

In the WHR, the Phoenix rises. On Krakoa, Rasputin declares victory, and Askani feels that Jean's alive. Charles and Moira.exe confer, while Jean and Enigma duel. Jean returns to Krakoa; Rasputin blusters (RotPoX 5 1-19)

Tony deals with Feilong. (Invincible Iron Man 19 19 -FB)

X-Corp(s) and associates, notably including Khora, deal with Selene. (X-Men Unlimited Infinity Comic 131-141)

"One week later," Xavier turns himself in. (RotPoX 5 20)

Moira is in Timeline Phoenix. (RotPoX 5 21)

"Days" after the defeat of Selene, Sunspot assesses matters. (X-Men Unlimited Infinity Comic 142)

Mystique, Destiny, Rogue and Nightcrawler have a picnic. (X-Men 35/2)

Everyone preps for Mystique and Destiny's wedding. (X-Men: The Wedding Special vol. 2 #1, stories 2, 3, 4 and 5)

Mystique and Destiny's wedding. (X-Men: The Wedding Special vol. 2 #1, stories 1 and ... shall we say 6 if it's a frame story?)

Tony and Emma hang out. (Invincible Iron Man 19 18, 20)

"Weeks" later, Pacific Krakoa does its Brigadoon routine. (X-Men 35)

After Krakoa is "gone," Tony wraps up his current series. (Invincible Iron Man 20)

Suggestions for changes are welcome!
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Clive_Reston »

Still an open question: where are Blood Hunt and Hellverine relative to the end of Krakoa, if the former is "days" after Avengers 12-13? I think it was Michael who pointed out that Wolverine 50/3 ends with Logan walking into a bar and popping his claws, and that Logan's appearance in Hellverine #1 also begins with that (although he's got his hat on in one and not the other). But the opening scene of Wolverine: Blood Hunt #1 is ALSO that (although he's got his Wolverine costume on!). The guy does spend a lot of time popping his claws in bars.
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Michael »

No, I think I made the argument that is since Wolverine is able to walk around without fear of being arrested by Orchis, Hellverine must take place after Orchis is defeated. I think the idea is that the flashback in Hellverine 2 where Daken is possessed takes place before everyone with combat training is resurrected in the White Hot Room, and that's why Daken isn't resurrected but the present day story in Hellverine takes place after Orchis is defeated.
I think X-Men: the Wedding Special is supposed to take place after X-Men 35. Betsy says they can't use the gates anymore, so that's probably after Krakoa is gone.
I also think the scene where Emma and Tony hang out in Invincible Iron Man 19 is supposed to take place relatively shortly after Enigma is defeated- Emma asks Tony what happened to Feilong and Tony gets his spare armor out of the Hellfire Club, since the building is going to be condemned after the fire in issue 15. (It would be weird for them to leave something as dangerous as an iron Man armor in a condemned building for a long period of time.)
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Michael »

Are we assuming that the scene with Xavier,the original Five and Kid Juggernaut in Marvel Voices Unlimited 100 takes place after Enigma is defeated but before Xavier turns himself in? It's the only place where it can fit but it's odd since as we see in X-Men 35, Wolverine is angry enough to kill Xavier and in From the Ashes 4, Warren still seems to harbor some resentment. I guess no one told Wolverine where Xavier was and Warren agreed to pretend to forgive Xavier?
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Michael »

Re: Blood Hunt- note that in the Blood Hunt- Magik one shot Illyana says that "I watched my last home be destroyed. My family scattered." Is she talking about the events of Fall of X or X-Men 35?
However, one other thing to note is that in the early issues of Spectacular Spider-Men, Mentallo is working for Hammerhead. Mentallo is on Krakoa in X-Men 35, so this probably takes place after X-Men 35. And Miles isn't a vampire in this story, so this has to take place before he got bitten by Blarnae in Blood Hunt. (I've been waiting to say Blarnae for weeks!)
Spoiler:
We know that Miles is going to be stuck as a vampire for quite some time after Blood Hunt, if the solicits are accurate.
So Blood Hunt should take place after X-Men 35.
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1393
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Michael »

A couple of things to note- Sandman is helping the heroes during Fall of the House of X, so that has to take place before his storyline in Amazing Spider-Man 45-53.
The Kingpin has Hellfire Club goons working for him in Gang War but the Hellfire Club is shut down after the fire in Fall of House of X- more evidence that Gang War takes place before Fall of House of X.
Dario Agger appears in Iron Man 20, so that has to be before his death in Immortal Thor 10. (Incidentally, in the same issue, the Enchantress casts a spell on Thor that will slow his thoughts whenever he is on Midgard and not among the Avengers, so we're going to have to keep that in mind when placing Thor appearances.)
One complicating factor- the current storyline in Daredevil suggests that the Kingpin has been possessed by Greed since the Heat first appeared. That includes Gang War and probably some of his appearances in Fall of House of X. I think we're just going to have to go with "The effects of the Kingpin's possession only became obvious recently".
Another thing to note- Strange seems to be the owner of the Sanctum Sanctorum in Iron Man 20- we'll have to see if he's still the owner after Blood Hunt 5 or if Doom takes over.
Midnighter
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am
Location: Venice, Italy
Contact:

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Midnighter »

Michael wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 7:42 am Are we assuming that the scene with Xavier,the original Five and Kid Juggernaut in Marvel Voices Unlimited 100 takes place after Enigma is defeated but before Xavier turns himself in? It's the only place where it can fit but it's odd since as we see in X-Men 35, Wolverine is angry enough to kill Xavier and in From the Ashes 4, Warren still seems to harbor some resentment. I guess no one told Wolverine where Xavier was and Warren agreed to pretend to forgive Xavier?
Uhm... Actually Xavier tells Sally Floyd that the only ones he couldn't make believe he was a murderer toward were his first class, and indeed it is with them that he shows up in Vancouver. But it still seems very strange to me that he would operate so openly after the events of Fall of the House of X.
In my opinion it all works better by treating it as a flashback to before Beast's abandonment of Krakoa.
Midnighter
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:47 am
Location: Venice, Italy
Contact:

Re: The post-Inferno to end of the Krakoa era X-titles thread

Post by Midnighter »

Michael wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 8:39 am The Kingpin has Hellfire Club goons working for him in Gang War but the Hellfire Club is shut down after the fire in Fall of House of X- more evidence that Gang War takes place before Fall of House of X.
But I think we never see Kingpin operating inside the Hellfire Club building. He may have Hellfire Club goons working for him even after the building is demolishe (or otherwise uninhabitable; we only see the demolition occur in Invincible Iron Man 20, some time after Fall of the House of X).
Since we see Typhoid return to Fisk during FotHoX (unless we extrapolate the sequence from the rest of the issue), we can assume that Gang War takes place shortly thereafter. Gang War lasts about 48 hours, may take place between FotHoX and Invincible Iron Man 20.
Post Reply