DOCTOR DOOM

[Michael]

Where does it say in Children's Crusade that Johnny is alive? Children's Crusade takes place after Chaos War and before Spider Island.

[Col_Fury]

You may be right.

In A:CC #9, "months" take place on page 16. We see three events on the news: Spider-Island, Schism and the return of the Human Torch.

Spider-Man is already a member of the Future Foundation during Spider-Island, and Spider-Island happens after Fear Itself. So we have:

Spider-Man joins Future Foundation -> Doom gets his brains fixed -> Fear Itself -> Spider-Island -> Schism -> Human Torch returns

Now over here: Placement of Children's Crusade it's said that dialogue somewhere in A:CC refers to the Torch being dead. What issue is that in? I haven't had a chance to look for this bit yet. If we can find that, then I think we're golden.

Also, for Wonder Man, why can't A:CC take place before the Avengers Annuals? If they're both before Fear Itself, why can't the order be:

A:CC -> Avengers Annuals -> Fear Itself

[Jason Doty]

If the Human Torch is dead during A:CC

The Human Torch appears in Daken: Dark Wolverine v1 #4 (before he dies), which is after "Wolverine Goes to Hell" which is in close proximity to "Namor Goes to Hell." but before the "Three" story line in Fantastic Four.

So A:CC needs to come after Namor:The First Mutant v1 #6-8 on your list.

[Paul Bourcier]

Col_Fury wrote:

Now over here: Placement of Children's Crusade it's said that dialogue somewhere in A:CC refers to the Torch being dead. What issue is that in? I haven't had a chance to look for this bit yet. If we can find that, then I think we're golden.

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN’S CRUSADE #9 (16:3)
One day, shortly after FF 604. Teddy and Billy look out the window to see Johnny Storm flying by. Teddy remarks that the Torch is alive. This may not be news, but it may just be the first time Teddy has seen the Torch since his return.

I'm guessing Johnny dies and returns during the gap between pages 15 and 16 of A:CC 9.

Col_Fury wrote:

Also, for Wonder Man, why can't A:CC take place before the Avengers Annuals? If they're both before Fear Itself, why can't the order be: A:CC -> Avengers Annuals -> Fear Itself

It certainly can, and I think it should, given Wonder Man. (I think we may have discussed this before.)

[Jason Doty]

Paul Wrote

I'm guessing Johnny dies and returns during the gap between pages 15 and 16 of A:CC 9.

Paul, I'm confused why you would want to place the "Three" arc between these pages when it can easily happen before A:CC, we don't see any on panel evidence for this.

Your going to have to take Daken, X-23, and Gambit into account, when we deal with this.

Human Torch is alive in Daken: Dark Wolverine (which is after "Wolverine goes to Hell")

Daken and X-23 issues have a cross over

Then X-23 has issues with the FF after Torch is dead. and Gambit (who appears in A:CC) is with X-23 through most of her series.

[Paul Bourcier]

Jason Doty wrote:

Paul, I'm confused why you would want to place the "Three" arc between these pages when it can easily happen before A:CC, we don't see any on panel evidence for this.

Just guessing at this point, as noted. I'd like to know more about this:

Jason Doty wrote:

The Human Torch appears in Daken: Dark Wolverine v1 #4 (before he dies), which is after "Wolverine Goes to Hell" which is in close proximity to "Namor Goes to Hell." but before the "Three" story line in Fantastic Four.

Does Doom appear in A:CC before the "Namor Goes to Hell" storyline, in which his mind is noted as diminished (Namor the First Mutant #8)? And with "Namor Goes to Hell" occurring closely on the heels of "Wolverine Goes to Hell," would it make sense to assume Daken: Dark Wolverine #4 occurs after "Namor Goes to Hell?" And if Johnny Storm appears in Daken #4 before he dies, then...

A:CC > Wolverine Goes to Hell/Namor Goes to Hell > Daken #4 > Johnny dies > Johnny returns > end of A:CC 9

Does this make sense? If so, what clues support this? If not, what clues refute this?

[JephYork]

Daken: Dark Wolverine v1 #4 ... is after "Wolverine Goes to Hell"

Not true.

Daken #1-3 occur *before* Wolverine v4 #1. (Mystique appears in those issues, then goes on to make an unbroken string of appearances in W4 #1-5.) The Torch is alive in Daken #3.

Daken #4 occurs very shortly after #3 -- Torch is still in mourning for Daken.

So for all we know, Daken #4 could also occur before Wolverine v4 #1.

-Jeph!

[Col_Fury]

I just flipped through A:CC and I can't find a mention of Human Torch, or the Fantastic Four for that matter, anywhere except for the Torch's return in #9.

In A:CC #8 (published the same month as F.F. #9), Doom offers to raise the dead, and his examples are Jean Grey, John Proudstar, Nightcrawler, Banshee, Captain Marvel and Wasp. No Human Torch, but whatever.

So what's keeping A:CC from happening after the Torch's death? Why can't A:CC happen after Doom gets his brains fixed?

[Paul Bourcier]

Col_Fury wrote:

So what's keeping A:CC from happening after the Torch's death? Why can't A:CC happen after Doom gets his brains fixed?

I don't think we've found that smoking gun, at least not yet. I'll spend some time on this during the weekend and make sure there aren't any larger MU considerations that would prevent most of A:CC from occurring after the Torch's death. In the meantime, if anyone else has evidence to offer, please share!

[Paul Bourcier]

Col_Fury wrote:

As it turns out, Doomwar #1 takes place "two days" after Black Panther #12. So yeah, it looks like Black Panther #9-12 needs to be moved to after T 606 as well.

Agreed.


Col_Fury wrote:

Any thoughts on Strange #4? Does Strange's chronology dictate a placement anywhere, or is this mini fairly freestanding? (aside from that it has to happen after Brother Voodoo becomes Doctor Voodoo, of course) How does after Doomwar #6 and before X-Factor #201 sound?

I don't own the Strange title, so I don't know how it intersects with the MU at large, but judging from the publication date, okay.


Col_Fury wrote:

Also, X-Force v2 #25 is the end of the Necrosha story. I seem to remember this happens shortly after Utopia. Doom, Strange and Voodoo all have cameos.

I'd put Doom's appearance in XFOR3 25 between where you now have STRANGE 4 and XF 201.


So...
...
T 604-606
BP5 9-12
DOOMWAR 1-6
STRANGE 4
XFOR3 25
XF 201-202
H2 606 (11-21)-FB
H2 606
...


Col_Fury wrote:

Winter Soldier #1-5 feature Doom in a green tunic and Lucia von Bardas is trying to frame him. It looks to me like Winter Soldier #1-5 are Doom's latest appearances to date, following Doom's release from exile in FF 611.

I agree.


Somebody wrote:

IH4 13-15 is Doombots-only, explicitly while Doom's off-world playing around with his Infinity Gauntlet.

Where is this explicit reference to the Infinity Gauntlet in H4 13 or 15?


OK, now for Avengers: The Children's Crusade. It would make sense to place this after Doom gets his intellect back in FF #2. There's nothing I can see that would force A:CC to occur before Johnny Storm's death, except perhaps Kristoff's status as ruler of Latveria from the time of mourning for Johnny (FF 588) to after Fear Itself (Kristoff is still in charge in FF 600). But there's a possible explanation for that...

Also in FF #2, Kristoff offers to give the throne back to Doom, but Doom refuses. I suppose it's possible for Doom to occupy the castle from time to time after this point, even though he's not officially the ruler of Latveria. And that would explain the fact that Doom is seen in his Latverian castle in A:CC. It would also explain Doom's use of the castle in issues of H4 (unless it's his American castle?)

How about...
...
FF 2
A:CC 4 (8:4)-FB
A:CC 2
A:CC 3
A:CC 4
A:CC 5
A:CC 8
H4 5 (1-3, 9-10, 14-15)-FB
H4 3-FB
H4 5 (1:1-19:2, 19:4, 19:6, 20:3-20:4)-FB
H4 6 (3-4, 14-15)-FB
X3 16
X3 17
X3 18
X3 19
H4 7
H4 7.1
FF 3
...

[Col_Fury]

OK, now for Avengers: The Children's Crusade. It would make sense to place this after Doom gets his intellect back in FF #2. There's nothing I can see that would force A:CC to occur before Johnny Storm's death, except perhaps Kristoff's status as ruler of Latveria from the time of mourning for Johnny (FF 588) to after Fear Itself (Kristoff is still in charge in FF 600). But there's a possible explanation for that...

Also in FF #2, Kristoff offers to give the throne back to Doom, but Doom refuses. I suppose it's possible for Doom to occupy the castle from time to time after this point, even though he's not officially the ruler of Latveria. And that would explain the fact that Doom is seen in his Latverian castle in A:CC. It would also explain Doom's use of the castle in issues of H4 (unless it's his American castle?)

Awesome.

X-Force v2 #25 is the end of the Necrosha story. I seem to remember this happens shortly after Utopia. Doom, Strange and Voodoo all have cameos.

I'd put Doom's appearance in XFOR3 25 between where you now have STRANGE 4 and XF 201.

That's quite a ways after Utopia, isn't it?

…
UTOPIA
CA:REBORN 4
[XFOR2 25] (here?)
[DRV 1]
[DRV 3]
[DRV 4]
[DRV 5]
T 603
T:GSFINALE
T 604
T 605
T 606
[BP5 9]
[BP5 10]
[BP5 11]
[BP5 12]
[DOOMWAR 1]
[DOOMWAR 2]
[DOOMWAR 3]
[DOOMWAR 4]
[DOOMWAR 5]
[DOOMWAR 6]
[STRANGE2 4]
[XFOR2 25] (or here?)
[XF 201]
…

Doesn't Necosha's placement have something to do with Elixer's coma? Or is it the Greymalkin/Utopia island location switch during the Necrosha story?

[Jason Doty]

Paul, you need to take X-Men v3 into consideration in your placement, "Serve and Protect" (X-Men v3 #7-10) which leads into "Spider-Island" because those X-Men featured appear in the Herc issues that tie into that storyline.

So you want A:CC to happen right on the heels of Fear Itself, Is this the direction your going in?

[Col_Fury]

So you want A:CC to happen right on the heels of Fear Itself, Is this the direction your going in?

That's the opposite of what he's saying.

...
FF 2
A:CC 4 (8:4)-FB
A:CC 2
A:CC 3
A:CC 4
A:CC 5
A:CC 8
H4 5 (1-3, 9-10, 14-15)-FB
H4 3-FB
H4 5 (1:1-19:2, 19:4, 19:6, 20:3-20:4)-FB
H4 6 (3-4, 14-15)-FB
X3 16
X3 17
X3 18
X3 19
H4 7
H4 7.1
FF 3
...

The Hulk Flashbacks are right after Fear Itself, so the X-Men issues are after Fear Itself also.

I'm under the impression that the reason A:CC is before Fear Itself is because of Wonder Man.

Putting this together with previous strings from this thread:

F.F. #1-2 -> A:CC -> Avengers Annuals -> Fear Itself -> Hulk flashbacks -> X-Men #7-10 -> Spider-Island -> X-Men #16-19 -> Schism -> Human Torch returns

[Jason Doty]

I'm confused

Paul wrote

There's nothing I can see that would force A:CC to occur before Johnny Storm's death, except perhaps Kristoff's status as ruler of Latveria from the time of mourning for Johnny (FF 588) to after Fear Itself (Kristoff is still in charge in FF 600). But there's a possible explanation for that...

Col. Fury wrote

F.F. #1-2 -> A:CC -> Avengers Annuals -> Fear Itself -> Hulk flashbacks -> X-Men #7-10 -> Spider-Island -> X-Men #16-19 -> Schism -> Human Torch returns

If you contend that FF v1 #1-2 happen before A:CC, then Human Torch has to die before A:CC. Am I missing something? because the Future Foundation is formed after Torch's death.

Sorry about my confusion regarding before or after Fear Itself, I forgot that Paul would only be listing Doom's appearances in his post.

[Col_Fury]

I'm confused

OK, I'm here to help!

If you contend that FF v1 #1-2 happen before A: CC, then Human Torch has to die before A:CC.

Yes.

There's nothing I can see that would force A:CC to occur before Johnny Storm's death,

Paul is saying that he's not seeing any reason why A:CC can't happen after Johnny Storm dies (FF #587), and by extension after Dr. Doom gets his brains fixed (F.F. #2).

except perhaps Kristoff's status as ruler of Latveria from the time of mourning for Johnny (FF 588) to after Fear Itself (Kristoff is still in charge in FF 600). But there's a possible explanation for that...

Here, Paul is preemptively offering a counterargument for placement of A:CC before Johnny Storm dies. i.e., "But what about Kristoff being in charge of Latveria? Kristoff isn't in charge of Latveria in A:CC, but he is after F.F. #2"

Also in FF #2, Kristoff offers to give the throne back to Doom, but Doom refuses. I suppose it's possible for Doom to occupy the castle from time to time after this point, even though he's not officially the ruler of Latveria. And that would explain the fact that Doom is seen in his Latverian castle in A:CC. It would also explain Doom's use of the castle in issues of H4 (unless it's his American castle?)

Here's Paul's response to his preenptive Kristoff question. He's saying that just because we see Doom in Latveria in A:CC, that doesn't automatically mean that Doom is ruling Latveria in A:CC. Kristoff could be ruling Latveria in A:CC, and Doom is just there. Just because Doom isn't ruling Latveria doesn't mean he can't show up from time to time. And why isn't Kristoff mentioned in A:CC? Because it's not important to the story being told in A:CC.

Am I making sense?

Sorry about my confusion regarding before or after Fear Itself, I forgot that Paul would only be listing Doom's appearances in his post.

That's why I included X-Men #7-10 here:

F.F. #1-2 -> A:CC -> Avengers Annuals -> Fear Itself -> Hulk flashbacks -> X-Men #7-10 -> Spider-Island -> X-Men #16-19 -> Schism -> Human Torch returns

so we can see the overall chronology, instead of just Doom's. After all, Doom doesn't apear in the Avengers Annuals, Fear Itself, X-Men #7-10, Spider-Island or Schism.