ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

[StrayLamb]

Hey Beifica, i think we're using the work-around outlined by Col.Fury some time back. I've copied it below for convenience..

UA 7-22 presents a whole slew of problems. It's one of the things that tends to happen when a story lasts over a year. No matter where we place AU 7-22, SOMETHING is going to have to be explained.

Wolverine still has his healing factor in UA 7-22, so this story has to happen before he loses it. Wolverine doesn't have his healing factor immediately after INFINITY, and there's evidence that he doesn't have it during INFINITY. In theory, UA 7-22 would have to happen before INFINITY, then.

In AASS 20, Wasp is wearing the outfit she got during UA 7-22. Again, this points to UA 7-22 happening before INFINITY. Of course, Wonder Man appears in AASS 20, and how important are clothes, anyway?

So yeah, we have two things pointing to before INFINITY, and one thing pointing to after. If there was no way out, I'd say Wonder Man was the more important thing but we do have a way out. But first, a side point.

Havok and Rogue (and therefore Wonder Man) are implied to be permanently stuck in tubes while Beast is running tests on them between UA 22-23, and yet they have to make appearances elsewhere during this time. On top of that, Havok's face is scarred, but it isn't when he appears in other comics. The running theory is that them being stuck in tubes permanently is hogwash and that Havok is using an image inducer to hide his face (until he's not anymore, as seen in AXIS).

We know that back in the day when Rogue absorbed Ms. Marvel, Ms. Marvel's personality would occasionally take prominence. Of course, this was just a copy of Ms. Marvel's personality, because she continued to exist after Rogue absorbed her powers and memories (albeit with amnesia). In this case, though, Rogue didn't just absorb Wonder Man's memories and powers, she actually absorbed him totally, somehow as a side effect of his ionic powers.

Tying it all together, that COULD be Rogue in AASS 20, Wonder Man's personality is in control, and they're using an image inducer to make her look like him. OR, they're using Wonder Man's ionic powers to (somehow) make her look like him. Rogue's not a complete jerk, and could be giving him a timeshare of sorts to keep his life in order until they figure out a way to separate themselves from each other.

Of course, that's just a theory.

Again, no matter where we place UA 7-22, something is going to have to be handwaved away. Is the current placement messy? HELL YES. But putting everything together, I just don't see many, if any, options around it.

Isn't chronology fun?

[Beifica]

Thank you for pointing that out Stray Lamb, it's indeed a convoluted period with many arcs overlapping.

[Russ Chappell]

This is my listing for this period, based on Col_Fury's listing, completed with page-numbered FB.

A5 34
NA3 16
NA3 17
NA3 20 (1 - 3)-FB
NA3 20 (16 - 17)-FB
NA3 18 (1 - 10)
NA3 21 (1:3 - 2)-FB
NA3 18 (11 - 18)
NA3 19 (3 - 4)-FB
NA3 19 (12:3 - 14)-FB
NA3 18 (19 - 20)
NA3 19
NA3 20
NA3 21
NA3 22

Here, you have the FB's in NA3 20 between NA3 17 & 18, but in the INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN post, you have this:

SUSMTU 9
SUSMTU 10
NA3 13
NA3 14
NA3 20 (2 - 3)-FB
NA3 20 (16 - 17)-FB
NA3 15
ANINHS 8 (3:2 - 3:5)-FB
SS6 1 (7:1)-FB

with the flashbacks between NA3 14 & 15. Which is correct?

[michel]

The second one: NA3 20 (1)-FB retells NA3 14 (19:3:5 - 20)

[Leoparis]

It's not just the Illuminati thing; it's mainly the world thinking that the Hulk is locked up.

An alternate reality Hulk is locked up in A5 25-28, but the world thinks it's "our" Hulk. However, our Hulk is running around in public during ORIGINAL SIN.

Of course, Hulk pops up in public in CA7 24-25 when the world thinks he's still locked away, but CA7 24-25 has other problems. Thor's hammer (as you mentioned), this Hulk thing, Mockingbird showing up when everyone thinks she's still missing, and maybe another thing or two I'm forgetting about at the moment. Thor's hammer has already been explained (the alternate reality hammer), Mockingbird probably let everyone know she was fine off-panel somewhere (who knows, because it was never mentioned again after Secret Avengers v2), and the Hulk being locked up thing was never mentioned again (either). But, those are CA7 24-25 concerns.

Anyway, yeah, A5 25-28 needs to be after ORIGINAL SIN because of the Hulk, but not necessarily because of the Illuminati. Both Hulk and Thor have some continuity problems in this area, but the current placements are the least damaging to both, I think.

Thanks!

If you use the alternate reality hammer as the explanation for Thor appearing with a hammer post OSIN 8, then you need to have A 25-27 and part of 28 before OSIN. Thor is seen fighting evil Thorr with his own hammer throwing lightning in that Avengers storyline.

Hulk joining the Illuminati occurs in the epilog of A 28. That epilog can take place later than the rest. That's what epilogs are for.

Chronology:
A 25-27 Thorr from evil Avengers comes with a hammer that can be used by whoever is unworthy and fights Thor who still handles his own hammer > OSIN 7-8 Thor loses ability to handle Mjolnir > various issues where Thor handles a hammer including A 29-34

By doing this:
You place A 25-28 before Original Sin (as expected from the Original Sin banner on A 29)
You solve the problem that Thor handles his own hammer during A 25-27.
You make it possible for Thor to handle a hammer post-OSIN (Thorr's hammer).
You remove a storyline between Cap learning of his mindwipe in OSIN and confronting Tony in A 29.

When SHIELD sees Hulk running around in OSIN, either they think the alternate is running around, either they realize they have the alternate Hulk. I don't see how that factor forces A 25-28 to take place after OSIN.

Note: When the evil Avengers leave our Earth, Thorr is seen with a hammer and so one could claim he did not leave his hammer on our Earth. But in NA3 27, 616 Thor does have that hammer so we must revise A 28 (told through narration anyway). Earlier in A 26 we see one of the Adaptoids with a hammer so they can duplicate it. The solution is that AIM gave an Adaptoid hammer to Thorr when they revived him and his Mjolnir stayed on our Earth where Thor found it.

This solves all your problems and you do not have to imagine that Thor gradually lost the use of his hammer and/or made return trips to the moon.