Spider-Man/Human Torch # 1 (2005)

[StrayLamb]

A note on the placement of Spider-Man related characters in Spider-Man/Human Torch # 1 (2005).

The current placement appears to be based on Chris McCarver's post from 2005..

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 92&p=45386

This has Spider-Man, Betty Brant, J. Jonah Jameson, and May Parker listed in this issue between UTSM 24 & ASM 23.

However, the Amazing Spider-Man: Official Index to the Marvel Universe (2010), compiled by most of our esteemed directors, has the placement for these characters between ASM 24 & ASM 25. This appears to be the correct placement, due to SM/HT 1 referencing Spidey's battle with Mysterio in ASM 24.

I therefore propose the following modifications to these chronologies..

BRANT, BETTY
...
ASM 22
SM/HT 1 *MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 23
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 *MOVE TO HERE
ASM 25
ASM 26
ASM 27
...

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
...
ASM 22
SM/HT 1 *MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 23
MARVELS 2 (24)
UTSM 25
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 *MOVE TO HERE
ASM 25
ASM 26
ASM 27
...

PARKER, MAY REILLY
...
ASM 22
UTSM 24
SM/HT 1 *MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 23
UTSM 25
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 *MOVE TO HERE
ASM 25
ASM 26
ASM 27
...

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 22
UTSM 24
FF 36
SM/HT 1 *MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 23
UTSM 25
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 *MOVE TO HERE
ASM 25
ASM 26
ASM 27
...

These modifications do not affect any other characters in the issue..

[StrayLamb]

A suggested further slight modification..

Spider-Man/Human Torch #1 works even better if placed for these characters between ASM 25 (1-6:6) and ASM 25 (6:7-20). The first part of ASM 25 follows on pretty directly from ASM 24, with Pete musing that he left his Spider-Beam on a rooftop yesterday, while ASM 25 (6:7) begins a new segment with an editorial note saying that ASM 24 occured weeks ago. Missed that the first time around.

[Clive_Reston]

This one just keeps getting deeper:

1) ASM 24 (8:3-20) appear to all take place the same night (May has been staying up late waiting for Peter), but it's also reasonable for pages 19:5-20 to happen the next day, since Liz inviting Pete over to "help her with her science lessons" that late at night would maybe mean something different... Liz is also wearing the same outfit in the first scene of ASM 25, and Peter notes that he left his Spider-Beam on a rooftop "yesterday" as he goes home--an editorial note says it was in the previous issue. (But ASM 24 (9:8) indicates that he had retrieved it already!)

2) ASM 25 (3:5) starts a new scene "the next morning": Peter unsuccessfully tries to sell Jonah photos of a cop arresting three random auto thieves before Spider-Man can get to them, and Betty gets furious at Peter.

3) In SM/HT 1, Peter is trying to sell Jonah pictures of Spider-Man fighting Mysterio (in full "fishbowl" costume), a follow-up to "the story you ran today," headlined "Masked Menaces Team Up!" Jonah isn't having it. But Mysterio never wears his costume in ASM 24, and Jonah was present for Mysterio's confrontation with Spider-Man, so Peter wouldn't be showing him photos of that anyway--at the beginning of ASM 24, Peter knows he can't show Jonah pictures of a fight for which Frederick Foswell was present. And, in any case, having both of the "Peter tries and fails to sell Jonah photos" scenes the same day doesn't make a lot of sense.

So could SM/HT involve photos of a different fight with Mysterio? It can't be the one from ASM 13: Peter mentions "the time you forced your autograph on me" (ASM 17) and "when you threatened me to stop making time with your girl" (ASM 21).

But: Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man 1-3 are set immediately after ASM 38, and involve Spider-Man having a fistfight with costumed Mysterio, and J. Jonah Jameson writing a Bugle piece about Spider-Man and Mysterio having joined forces to kidnap him. There's a gap of a few days between WTOS 3 pages 19 and 20 where SM/HT 1 mostly fits really well for Spider-Man--it's even during the period where he knows Aunt May is trying to set him up with Mary Jane but hasn't met her yet (to be fair, that's a long period). The only problem for him is that what he says was the "last time" he met Dr. Doom is clearly ASM 5, and SM&FF2 1 (published a few years after SM/HT!), in which they also meet, is currently placed between ASM 34 and 35. (Of course, SM&FF2 1 has plenty of its own continuity difficulties...)

The question is if that placement can be made to work for 1) Johnny (still dating Dorrie, still living in Glenville) and 2) Paste-Pot Pete--still going by that name, or going by it again. (Johnny and Dorrie have broken up, at least temporarily, as of SM&FF2 1, for what it's worth.) Any thoughts?

[StrayLamb]

Just off the top of my head, and without going back to re-read those issues, which i'll do when i get a chance, Paste-Pot Pete didn't just change his name to Trapster, but changed his costume as well, and SM/HT 1 chronicles the events that led to him changing his name in the first place. He appears in the new costume and going by Trapster in FF 38. ASM 38 takes place just before that contentious summer break in FF 51, where the FF head off to Wakanda.

I do agree with your analysis of ASM 24 (8:3-20), placing an extra day into that segment.

[StrayLamb]

3) In SM/HT 1, Peter is trying to sell Jonah pictures of Spider-Man fighting Mysterio (in full "fishbowl" costume), a follow-up to "the story you ran today," headlined "Masked Menaces Team Up!" Jonah isn't having it. But Mysterio never wears his costume in ASM 24, and Jonah was present for Mysterio's confrontation with Spider-Man, so Peter wouldn't be showing him photos of that anyway--at the beginning of ASM 24, Peter knows he can't show Jonah pictures of a fight for which Frederick Foswell was present. And, in any case, having both of the "Peter tries and fails to sell Jonah photos" scenes the same day doesn't make a lot of sense.

So could SM/HT involve photos of a different fight with Mysterio? It can't be the one from ASM 13: Peter mentions "the time you forced your autograph on me" (ASM 17) and "when you threatened me to stop making time with your girl" (ASM 21).

Also, maybe Pete had some stock photos on hand of Spidey battling Mysterio from a previous occasion which had already been rejected by Jonah in favor of better pics? Slightly unscrupulous, but Pete was always scratching for bread, and i bet Jonah's keen eye would have realized that he'd seen the pics before, and would contribute to his rejection of them here. Howzat!

[Antonio Gaviño]

I went over this one 10 years ago (wow, it’s been that long already) when I was checking for errors on the first issue of The Official Index to The Marvel Universe/Spider-man. I still think the right placement for Spider-man in SM/HT 1 is after FF 36 and before ASM 23 where the Project currently has it. You can see the reasoning for it in the entries for ASM 22 and 24, here,
http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... php?t=4270
What I still don’t see is any reason why it can’t go where it’s placed right now.

[StrayLamb]

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 24
FEATURE CHARACTER: Spider-Man (next in SM/HT # 1, '05) (This is wrong, the first issue of this mini takes more than three days and ASM # 25 happens the day after ASM # 24, so it can't go between those issues, it doesn't read right on that place, unfortunately it can't go anywhere after ASM # 25 either (I won't elaborate on the reasons). At the end of SM/HT # 1 Jonah buys pictures from Peter who is in good terms with Betty, so it wouldn’t fit between issues 23 & 24 because in those issues Peter is mad at Betty and he also says at the start of issue 24 he hasn’t sold any pictures to Jonah in weeks; in SM/HT # 1 Paste Pot Pete decides to change his name, so the issue happens at some point between FF # 36 where he still uses that name and FF # 38 where he is now called the Trapster. Following ASM # 22 Spidey is in FF # 36 and the only place left would be after that where it actually fits perfectly but for one reason: at the beginning of SM/HT # 1 Peter is trying to sell Jonah pictures of Spider-Man fighting Mysterio. Now, this is not the same fight as in ASM # 24 (Peter doesn't take pictures of that one where Mysterio is disguised as Ludwig Rinehart); in these pictures we see Mysterio with his fish bowl costume, this is a previously unseen fight. There's something Mysterio says in ASM # 24 that might explain the fight from SM/HT happening previously: "I knew he (Spidey) wouldn't be suspicious (of Rinehart being Mysterio) if I played my cards right". So, he probably feigned a defeat as Mysterio to throw Spidey off about Rinehart's real identity. Other than for Spidey's supporting cast I don't think it should be a problem relocating the issue)

I took the liberty of pasting the relevant section of your old post into the quote above for ease of reference. When i started this post, i apparently didn't take notice of the fact that Pete's photos had to be from a previous battle with Mysterio. Looking at your comments here, along with Clive_Reston's, i would have to concede the point.

[Captain Good]

Though the discussion above was back in 2019, the MCP still shows the sequence ASM 25 (1-6:6)—SM/HT 1—ASM 25 (6:7–20) for Spider-Man, Aunt May, Betty Brant and Jonah Jameson. This chronology really makes no sense.

• The most straightforward reading of ASM 24 and 25 would have Spider-Man's encounters with "Ludwig Reinhart"/Mysterio and the Spider-Slayer on two consecutive days, depicted in ASM 24 (8:3)–ASM 25 (3:4) and ASM 25 (3:5–20) respectively.

• However, in ASM 25 (6:7) Flash Thompson mentions helping "old Spidey to get the last laugh on that phony psychiatrist a few weeks ago", with a footnote confirming he refers to ASM 24. This seems to be the justification for splitting ASM 24 at this point, but in the very next frame, ASM 25 (6:8) Connie says of Peter and Liz "I told you they had a date last night!" Peter and Liz's "date" was shown in ASM 24 (19:5)–ASM 25 (1:1). ASM 25 (6:7) has to be the same day as ASM 25 (3:5-6:6), and there is no room for SM/HT 1 to fit between them.

• Even if one tried to argue that Connie was referring to a subsequent, more recent "date" for Peter and Liz, rather than the one "weeks ago" in ASM 24, it still wouldn't read right. ASM 25 (5-6) show Jameson elated and Peter bricking it after the demonstration of the Spider-Slayer. Why would they then forget about the robot altogether for the three days+ of SM/HT1, only to suddenly remember it again in ASM 25 (7)?

If I've read it correctly, the consensus of the discussion above seemed to favour placing SM/HT 1 back where it used to be, immediately before ASM 23. It has been pointed out that the battle with Mysterio mentioned in SM/HT 1 (3) cannot be the same as the one in ASM 24, but if one still wanted to stick with the Official Index and place SM/HT 1 after ASM 24, a better fit would be in the potential gap Clive Reston identified, between ASM 24 (19:4) and ASM 24 (19:5). This gap would be the "few weeks" Flash mentioned.

BRANT, BETTY
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
JAMESON, JOHN JONAH
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
PARKER, MAY
UTSM 25
ASM 24 (8-13) - split
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 24 (20) - split
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
SPIDER-MAN
UTSM 25
ASM 24 (1-18) - split
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 24 (19:5-20) - split
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26

The only problem is that in ASM 25 (1:2) Peter remembers his Spider-Beam, which he left on a roof "yesterday", with a footnote saying this was in ASM 24. That can be ignored, though, as it has already been shown above that the footnote is incorrect however you read it: Peter threw the Spider-Beam onto the roof in ASM 24 (9:2) but thinks that he was glad he didn't forget to grab it again in ASM 24 (9:8). It seems he was in the habit of leaving it lying about: in ASM 25 (1:2) he must have been thinking of a different roof on a different day.

[StrayLamb]

It has been pointed out that the battle with Mysterio mentioned in SM/HT 1 (3) cannot be the same as the one in ASM 24, but if one still wanted to stick with the Official Index and place SM/HT 1 after ASM 24, a better fit would be in the potential gap Clive Reston identified, between ASM 24 (19:4) and ASM 24 (19:5). This gap would be the "few weeks" Flash mentioned.

*************

The only problem is that in ASM 25 (1:2) Peter remembers his Spider-Beam, which he left on a roof "yesterday", with a footnote saying this was in ASM 24. That can be ignored, though, as it has already been shown above that the footnote is incorrect however you read it: Peter threw the Spider-Beam onto the roof in ASM 24 (9:2) but thinks that he was glad he didn't forget to grab it again in ASM 24 (9:8). It seems he was in the habit of leaving it lying about: in ASM 25 (1:2) he must have been thinking of a different roof on a different day.

Works for me. Spidey is notoriously absent-minded. Where were you two years ago, Captain Good?

No changes below, just reformatted into the way we usually list the page breaks for May and Spidey.

BRANT, BETTY
---
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
---

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
---
ASM 24
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
---

PARKER, MAY REILLY
---
UTSM 25
ASM 24 (8-13) - split
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 24 (14-20) - split
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
---

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
---
UTSM 25
ASM 24 (1-18) - split
SM/HT 1 - move to here
ASM 24 (19-20) - split
ASM 25 - no need to split
ASM 26
---

[Captain Good]

Thank you StrayLamb :)

[Antonio Gaviño]

Not to be dismissive of Captain Good or anybody’s efforts but I just read the issues in the recently proposed order and I can’t say that I agree with it. It feels forced and disruptive of the intended reading flow.
A few things strike me as odd from from this topic discussion. Why would the project place SM/HT 1 between ASM 25 (1-6:6) and ASM 25 (6:7–20) even after StrayLamb conceded that wasn’t the best placement?
Also, I can see that Captain Good’s initiative to move SM/HT 1 from where the project already had it before (right before ASM 23 in what I think is the correct placement) comes from trying to ‘stick with the Official Index and place SM/HT 1 after ASM 24’, but by splitting ASM 24 between pages you are not exactly sticking with the Official Index and are in fact disagreeing with it and changing the placement.
I’ll probably give a more detailed explanation in another post for why I think the latest proposed positioning is wrong but I’m going to say again what I said two years ago; nobody has yet given one single reason why SM/HT 1 can’t go between FF 36 and ASM 23, a place where the issue fits perfectly for all characters involved.

[Captain Good]

Well, quite.

If I've read it correctly, the consensus of the discussion above seemed to favour placing SM/HT 1 back where it used to be, immediately before ASM 23.

I don't have any strong opinion as to where SM/HT 1 should go, only that it should not go between ASM 25 (1-6:6) and ASM 25 (6:7–20).

[StrayLamb]

Very often there is no perfect position for these types of inserted stories. If you don't look at them too closely, they work well enough. Marvel is in the business of telling stories, which they do very, very well, but at the MCP we look very closely indeed, in order to compile detailed, and as accurate as possible, character chronologies. Sometimes we have to go with a concensus for a position that works best for each of the individual characters involved. I'm not saying we've set this in stone, because we haven't. The more people that opt into the discussion, the better chance we have of finding the best solution.