There’s something about Gamora…

[Col_Fury]

Here’s Gamora’s early chronology, before her first appearance in ST 180:

GAMORA | EARTH-7528
WLOCK 10-FB
M/HOL 1992/6-FB
WLOCK&TIW 9-FB
NO5 1-FB
……

WLOCK 10-FB is Gamora’s origin, M/HOL 1992/6-FB is her as at 5 years old and WLOCK&TIW 9-FB is her at 15 years old (also, she’s not fully trained yet, is almost killed by some alien thugs and then her body is rebuilt by Thanos).

In WLOCK 10-FB, Thanos travels to the future (“some years from now”). Gamora’s entire race is killed by the Magus’ Universal Church of Truth, but Thanos saves Gamora (a child). He then raises her from childhood to adulthood, endows her with powers and trains her to be an assassin. When her training is (more or less) complete, he “allows” her to kill the inquisitors that will eventually murder her race. Then, a recap panel that brings us back to WLOCK 9.

Also, Thanos says he did all of this in an attempt to reclaim Titan. He wasn’t yet in charge of Titan in IM 55, and in a surprise reveal, he was “king of Titan” as of CM 26. So, all of this happens after CM 25-33 for Thanos.

Immediately after CM 33, Thanos floats in space (A@ 7-FB), is retrieved by the Blood Brothers (THANOS@ 1), then starts looking for the Infinity Gems (A@ 7-FB) which leads right in to WLOCK 9-15. This would basically have to be after THANOS@ 1 and before A@ 7-FB, then.

Thanos must have taken Gamora back to the past to raise her, because he found her (in the future) as a child and of course she’s an adult by the end of it. We’re talking at least 20 years, here. (she’s still working with Thanos in ST 178-181 & WLOCK 9-15) A@ 7 (10:5 - 11:6)-FB will likely get broken up during any “raising Gamora” scenes while he researches the Infinity Gems, but by the time the Stranger shows up in A@ 7 (11:2)-FB we’re back to the current day.

Also, WLOCK&TIW 10-FB is in Thanos’ chronology, but that issue doesn’t have a flashback (and so should be deleted). WLOCK&TIW 9-FB is missing, as is WLOCK 10-FB. M/HOL 1992/6-FB is in there, though.

Also, NO5 1-5 need to be moved in Gamora’s chronology to match Rocket Raccoon’s placement. The flashback looks fine where it is.

Some adjustment suggestions:

GAMORA | EARTH-7528
**WLOCK 10-FB (delete)
*WLOCK 10 (15:8 - 16:6)-FB
M/HOL 1992/6-FB
WLOCK&TIW 9-FB
*WLOCK 10 (16:7 - 16:8)-FB
NO5 1-FB
**NO5 1 (move from here)
**NO5 2 (move from here)
**NO5 3 (move from here)
**NO5 5 (move from here)
{ST 180}
……
THANOSIMP 6
*NO5 1 (move to here)
*NO5 2 (move to here)
*NO5 3 (move to here)
*NO5 5 (move to here)
AASS2 5-FB
……

THANOS
……
DD 105 (14:1 - 14:7)-FB
**M/HOL 1992/6-FB (move from here)
A 118
DD 107 (14:1 - 14:2)-FB
IM 55
LRUN 6/2
**WLOCK&TIW 10-FB (delete)
CM 25
……
CM 33 (8:2 - 18)
A@ 7 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB
THANOS@ 1
*WLOCK 10 (15:8 - 16:6)-FB
*A@ 7 (10:5-10:6)-FB
*M/HOL 1992/6-FB (move to here)
*A@ 7 (10:7-10:8)-FB
*WLOCK&TIW 9-FB
*WLOCK 10 (16:7 - 16:8)-FB
*A@ 7 (11:1 - 11:6)-FB
WLOCK 9
……

For future reference, I’m pretty sure the 2017 GAMORA mini would fit here:

WLOCK 10 (16:7)-FB
GAMORA 1-5
WLOCK 10 (16:8)-FB

[StrayLamb]

For future reference, I’m pretty sure the 2017 GAMORA mini would fit here:

WLOCK 10 (16:7)-FB
GAMORA 1-5
WLOCK 10 (16:8)-FB

Pretty sure GAMORTA 1-5 doesn't fit anywhere within E-616. Gamora's entire backstory has been rewritten. The Church of Universal Truth has been changed to the Badoon, and other details have been altered along the way. The series was written by Nicole Perlman, co-writer of the Guardians of the Galaxy movie, who in an interview with Ben Morse, indicated that this series is set in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.. https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/ ... going-deep

[Somebody]

Before you go any deeper down this rabbithole, please note that a Thanos miniseries focusing on his raising Gamora is coming in April.

[Col_Fury]

WLOCK 10 doesn't say anything about what kind of aliens the inquisitors were that wiped out Gamora's race (in the future). In the future the Church has members from all kinds of alien races. I suppose it's possible this inquisitor group were/will be Badoon, mostly Badoon, or whatever.

Also, if GAMORA 1-5 does say it was the Badoon then it can't happen in the movie universe; Thanos did it in the movies.

Looks like I'll be pulling out the GAMORA mini in the near future.

[Col_Fury]

In GAMORA 1-5, Gamora meets some other Zen-Whoberis. The problem is, they explain that they survived their people’s massacre because they were exiled from the planet a year before it happened. And that they know who Gamora is, and that they’re related. The problem is, according to WLOCK 10 the Zen-Whoberi massacre is an event in the future that will be avoided (Gamora is from Earth-7528 where the massacre wasn’t avoided “some years from now”). There can’t be any survivors of something that hasn’t happened.

Put another way:

In WLOCK 10-FB, Thanos travels to the future (Earth-7528) and saves Gamora from a massacre. He returns to the past (Earth-616) and raises Gamora for roughly 20 years. “Now” (20 years after he returns w/the child Gamora), the massacre hasn’t happened yet. Then in GAMORA 1-5, Gamora runs in to some survivors of the massacre that hasn’t happened (huh?).

Or another way:

In Earth-616, the Zen-Whoberis are still out there and Gamora hasn’t been born yet.

I’m having trouble seeing how GAMORA 1-5 can be canon.

But hey! I found a missing appearance for the Badoon Brother Royal while looking into this:

BROTHER ROYAL
……
X@ 5
*SS3 25
GOTG 31
……

[Michael]

Gamora's people were retconned as having been killed by the Badoon in Warlock and the Infinity Watch 11. Their killers are also described as Badoon in Warlock and the Infinty Watch 26. As for the "some years from now" Marvel Time is vague, so it's possible Gamora was born by Gamora 1-5. The only question is how the Zen Whoperbis recognize Gamora when she should be 20 years older than they remember.

[Col_Fury]

Good catch with the Badoon! And Eternity refers to the Zen-Whoberi massacre in the past tense in WLOCK&TIW 11, so they have been killed in Earth-616. I was wrong about it being averted! I guess in Earth-7528 they were killed by the Church and in Earth-616 they were killed by the Badoon. And Gamora-616 likely died along with the rest.

Also, there is one new bit of -FB for Gamora before her people are killed in WLOCK&TIW 11. The rest are recap -FBs.

If GAMORA 1-5 is canon, then it has to happen after WLOCK 9-15. The Zen-Whoberis explicitly haven't been killed yet as of WLOCK 10. Gamora's next appearance is in A@ 7 & M/TIO@ 2 where she dies. In theory:

GAMORA | EARTH-7528
*WLOCK&TIW 11-FB
WLOCK 10 (15:8 - 16:6)-FB
M/HOL 1992/6-FB
WLOCK&TIW 9-FB
WLOCK 10 (16:7 - 16:8)-FB (Gamora kills the eventual Church inquisitors, averting Earth-7528)
NO5 1-FB
{ST 180}
ST 181
WLOCK 9
WLOCK 10 (Zen-Whoberis not dead yet, won't die "for some years")
WLOCK 11
WLOCK 15
-Zen-Whoberi killed by the Badoon-
???GAMORA 1-5 (kills Badoon royalty, meets Zen-Whoberi survivors)
A@ 7-FB (betrayed by Thanos)
A@ 7
M/TIO@ 2 (dies/enters Soul Gem/whatever)
……

However, the Zen-Whoberi survivors have been in exile for over ten years. Oops. Well, they're exiled on a planet that's near a black hole, and according to Stephen Hawking, black holes distort time. So maybe they've only been there for a year (or whatever), but for them since time is warped they've lived ten years while there. *waves hand in air* Or something.

In any case, the Magus is missing an appearance:

MAGUS/ADAM WARLOCK | EARTH-7528
……
ST 181
WLOCK 9
WLOCK 10
*WLOCK 11
IW 2-FB
……

Thoughts?

[MarvelBoy2002]

What about Nebula? I'm not familiar with Gamora's history but in the mini Nebula is depicted as her foster sister. IIRC, in the PMU Thanos was Nebula's grandfather.

[DonCampbell]

What about Nebula? I'm not familiar with Gamora's history but in the mini Nebula is depicted as her foster sister. IIRC, in the PMU Thanos was Nebula's grandfather.

The fact that Gamora and Nebula seem to have been raised together by Thanos is the more problematic part of the Gamora miniseries. Unfortunately, nobody at Marvel has yet addressed the uncertainty about how the histories of the Guardians of the Galaxy from the Marvel Comics Universe may have been affected by the histories of the Guardians team from the Marvel Cinematic Universe or, for that matter, the histories of the Guardians from the Marvel Cartoon Universe.

Anyway, I have followed Nebula's career from the very beginning. Here are a few highlights:
1. Nebula first appeared in AVENGERS as a space pirate who claimed that Thanos was her grandfather.
2. Nebula first encountered Thanos in SILVER SURFER when the newly-resurrected Mad Titan burnt her alive for daring to make such a claim.
3. Eros once claimed that a genetic scan had proved that Nebula was not actually related to Thanos.
4. A mindlink with Firelord revealed that when Nebula was a young girl she had killed a blue-skinned male alien with a Thanos-like furrowed chin (possibly her father or her mother's boyfriend) who had sexually abused her and killed her mother.
5. While in prison, Nebula was returned to a state of sanity via some cybernetic upgrades (and having her head shaved for the first time).
6. A NOVA retcon revealed that the real reason that Nebula had destroyed Xandar was because she was the daughter of the warlord Zorr who had been killed by Nova Centurion Romann Dey.
7. In the ANNIHILATION: RONAN miniseries, Nebula appeared alongside Gamora for the first time, as one of the all-female team known as Gamora's Graces. There was, of course, not even a hint that the two of them had known each other before.

I am really hoping that someone who cares about continuity will eventually write a story that definitively states that Nebula and Gamora were NOT raised together by Thanos. However, there's no sign of such a story coming anytime soon.

[Col_Fury]

Chances are, this is going to come up in the Thanos mini Somebody mentioned (coming out in April). I'm willing to bet Nebula appears, and is going to be "raised by Thanos" alongside Gamora (as she does in GAMORA 1-5).

Also, don't forget, Nebula looks like she does in the movies in her most recent, current-day appearances (Thanos v2, Asgardians of the Galaxy, etc.). And yes, she looks like she does in the movies in GAMORA 1-5.

It's a retcon that's almost guaranteed to stick. Just like the "Star-Lord was raised by Yondu" retcon seen in Star-Lord #1-5. I'd like to find a way to make GAMORA 1-5 fit, because I'm almost positive this isn't something that's going away (but I've been wrong plenty of times about plenty of things before, so who knows?).

It would go here, if canon:

NEBULA
SS@ 5/3-FB (as a child)
???GAMORA 1-5 (older, raised by Thanos)
A 259-FB (shortly before first appearance)
……

And hey, why does Nebula claim to be "Thanos' granddaughter" in her early Avengers appearances? Well now we know; she was raised by Thanos, as seen in GAMORA 1-5 and likely in the upcoming THANOS3 1-6.



-edit-

A brief analysis of Gamora #1-5.

[StrayLamb]

StrayLamb gingerly pokes head up out of rabbit hole, looks around sheepishly, then hoping nobody (or even Somebody) saw him, he decides to lay low a while longer..

[DonCampbell]

Chances are, this is going to come up in the Thanos mini Somebody mentioned (coming out in April). I'm willing to bet Nebula appears, and is going to be "raised by Thanos" alongside Gamora (as she does in GAMORA 1-5).

Also, don't forget, Nebula looks like she does in the movies in her most recent, current-day appearances (Thanos v2, Asgardians of the Galaxy, etc.). And yes, she looks like she does in the movies in GAMORA 1-5.

I've just read that interview with the writer of the upcoming THANOS miniseries that will focus on his raising of Gamora and something that has made me ever-so-slightly hopeful was the complete absence of any mention of Nebula. So, there is at least a chance that the writer cares about continuity enough to fix this mess. Or not. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

If Nebula does appear (as a child) in the upcoming miniseries, then that would be a problem because it would mean that she went from being a bald cyborg (in the GAMORA mini) to a non-cyborg with a full head of hair (in AVENGERS and INFINITY GAUNTLET) and then was shown being transformed into a bald cyborg in SILVER SURFER. The idea that she could have gone from fully organic to cyborg and then was somehow transformed back to being fully organic before being converted (for a second time) to cyborg is...not impossible...but it is REALLY awkward. In comparison, the possibility that Gamora and Nebula were both raised together by Thanos as children but their memories were later suppressed and only emerged at some point after they had first met as adults (in the ANNIHILATION: RONAN mini) seems far more plausible (but not any more desirable).

It's a retcon that's almost guaranteed to stick. Just like the "Star-Lord was raised by Yondu" retcon seen in Star-Lord #1-5. I'd like to find a way to make GAMORA 1-5 fit, because I'm almost positive this isn't something that's going away (but I've been wrong plenty of times about plenty of things before, so who knows?).

The situation with Star-Lord's revised history is somewhat different. As much as I would like to place all the blame for the mess that was Star-Lord's origin on Brian Michael Bendis, the truth is that things were already pretty messed up before he got involved. When Keith Giffen brought Peter Quill into Reality-616, he did so without really considering that Star-Lord's origin from MARVEL PREVIEW wouldn't really fit into Earth-616 history. So, Peter Quill from Earth-616 was in desperate need of a new origin and Bendis provided one (although I don't for one second think that he gave ANY thought to how his revised origin would affect continuity). In any event, the origin that Sam Humphries wrote for Star-Lord #1-5 is not exactly the same as the GOTG movie origin, and I think it's an acceptable compromise (given that the MP origin is unworkable).

As for the changes to Gamora's history, it's worth noting that her creator Jim Starlin wrote both versions of how her people were wiped out and is responsible for changing the killers from the Universal Church of Truth's Grand Inquisitors to the Badoon. I think there was some mention somewhere that maybe the Badoon had been working for the UCT when they wiped out the Zen Whoberis. In any event, I believe this change was made because Starlin's idea of what happened at the end of his Magus/Warlock saga is somewhat different from ours. While we fans generally consider Gamora to have been taken from an alternate timeline (Earth-7528), Starlin seems to be of the opinion that Gamora came from a possible future of Earth-616 that was later changed by the Time-Quake that Adam Warlock caused by retroactively preventing his future Magus self from appearing on Homeworld five thousand years in the past.

As for the Earth-616 Zen Whoberis, at the time of Gamora's first storyline they were fated to die "some years from now" at the hands of the UCT forces (just like their Earth-7528 counterparts ultimately did). However, thanks to the Time-Quake, the last five thousand years of Earth-616 history have been altered by the absence of the Magus so the idea that they were exterminated by the Badoon years earlier than the UCT forces would have done in the earlier version of the timeline is totally plausible. The only problem would be why Gamora "remembers" that it was the Badoon who wiped out her people if she comes from a timeline where it was the UCT forces that committed the genocide. After all, following the time-quake, Thanos said that he, Gamora, Warlock and Pip were the only four (mortal) beings who remembered how reality had been before the "explosive reshuffling of time" that Warlock had caused.

To make matters worse, these later versions of Gamora's history have tended to omit any mention that Thanos had time travelled into the future to get her. Instead, the current idea seems to be that Thanos in the past just happened to come across the Badoon attack on the Zen Whoberis and decided that the newly-orphaned child might be someone whom he could easily mold into his personal assassin so he saved her.

[Somebody]

And if your brain's not exploded yet, let's not forget that Adam Warlock folded the UCT future *back* into the MU to arrest the Fault's spread in Realm of Kings. (Which turned him into the Magus. Retroactively. And also brought the Matriarch into continuity)

[DonCampbell]

And if your brain's not exploded yet, let's not forget that Adam Warlock folded the UCT future *back* into the MU to arrest the Fault's spread in Realm of Kings. (Which turned him into the Magus. Retroactively. And also brought the Matriarch into continuity)

Gah! I had forgotten about how Adam Warlock had effectively restored the UCT into Reality-616. However, even though Warlock accomplished this by grafting/overlapping the "inert" Magus timeline (Reality-7528) onto the mainstream timeline which had become "unanchored" due to the Fault, doesn't this count more as a massive universe-wide alteration of reality instead of any sort of divergence? And frankly, what exactly DID happen when Warlock overlapped the timelines? Were planets and their populations in the 616 timeline just replaced by what their 7528 counterparts had been? Or did a "new" Universal Church of Truth just suddenly appear and grow with enormous speed into something very similar to the 7528 UCT? I don't think that this was something that has ever been explained.

Also, one aspect of this whole "Thanos raised Gamora from a child" idea that has never Been explained is this: Where do those 20-odd years occur within Thanos's chronology? Think about it. The 1970s were an active time for Thanos. Here's a list of his activities in only five (real world) years:
1. Conquered Titan.
2. Acquired the Cosmic Cube but then lost it (Captain Marvel #25-33).
3. Abandoned by Death because of his failure, Thanos then searched for an offering he could use to regain her favor and discovered the six Soul Gems (Avengers Annual #7 - FB).
4. Unwilling to directly oppose Warlock's Soul Gem, Thanos instead allied himself with Warlock against the Magus (Warlock #9-11).
5. After creating his synthetic Star-Gem out of five of the Soul Gems and the elements he needed from Warlock's sixth gem, Thanos began his attempt at total stellar genocide and soon killed Adam Warlock but his gem was destroyed by Iron Man shortly before Thanos himself was killed (or turned to granite) by a briefly-reborn Warlock (Avengers Annual #7 and Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2).

So, where do the twenty years he spent raising Gamora fit into this chronology? To simplify things, let's temporarily ignore Marvel's Sliding Timescale and assign some firm dates to these events. Let's say that Thanos and Warlock both died in "1977" and that those deaths took place "a year - - maybe two" after the end of the Magus Saga. And since the Magus storyline began just under two years after the Cosmic Cube storyline began, let's be generous and place another two years between them.

1973: Thanos gains the Cosmic Cube but loses to the Avengers. Abandoned by Death, he eventually learns of the six Soul Gems. While researching Adam Warlock's present and future lives, he learns of the Magus and begins to "create" Gamora as an agent possibly capable of killing the Magus.
1975: The Magus Saga occurs. Warlock retroactively-aborts his transformation into the Magus and by doing so causes a time-quake that rewrites the last 5,000 years of galactic history by removing both the Magus and his Universal Church of Truth from Reality-616.
1977: After acquiring what he needed from Warlock's Soul Gem, Thanos obtained the other five Soul Gems, created his Star-Gem and killed Gamora. Thanos then uses his Stellar Projector to destroy at least one star before being defeated and killed by Warlock and the Avengers.

Where does his raising of Gamora fit into this timeline? As I see it, there are three possibilities:
1. Thanos actually began his research into the Magus way back before he conquered Titan or obtained the Cosmic Cube. In this scenario, it was 1955 when Thanos travelled into the future and returned to 1955 to begin raising the young Gamora to become his assassin.
2. Thanos realized that he will have to deal with Warlock circumspectly c. 1974. After learning of the Magus, Thanos travelled into the future (say, sometime in the 1980s) where he rescued Gamora and then brought her back in time to 1955 when he stayed to raise her. This would mean that for 20 years there were two versions of Thanos in existence.
3. Thanos actually travelled from 1975 into the future to rescue Gamora and then, after returning to 1975, he placed her within some sort of artificial reality, similar to how Elysius caused Genis-Vell to grow from an infant to an adult in a very short time. This would imply that some or most of Gamora's life was actually spent within an artificial environment, with perhaps only a few excursions into the outside reality before she was ready to carry out the tasks for which Thanos had created her.

If anybody can see a flaw in my reasoning, please let me know.

Update: Aside from, of course, the fact that 20 years before 1975 should have been 1955 and not 1965, as I had originally posted.

[Somebody]

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04/24 ... -spoilers/