Chronology: Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers

[StrayLamb]

Tales to Astonish 35 (2:3-3:1): Pym resumes his research and studies ants. (segment 1:22 is a retelling of TTA 27 so is does not occur here.)

This one is outside of my parameters – I don’t mind including a recap page. That sort of technicality is fine for the individual character appearance pages, where everything is nutted out in detail.

Strange Tales 109 (8-10:2): Two weeks later, he uses it to rob ab bank. The Torch investigates.
...
Strange Tales 109 (10:3-13): Next day, he confronts and arrests the villain.

ST 109 (8-9) are two weeks later. ST 109 (10:1-10:2) occur “as days pass.” Certainly this could be incorporated with pages 8 & 9, but as ST 109 (10:3-13) “the following day” is the day after panel 10:2, i chose to incorporate that with “the following day.” It comes down to a matter of personal choice, but I feel that since “as the days pass” is ambiguous, and “the following day” specifically comes after that, it makes more sense to keep these panels together.

Tales to Astonish 47 (1-6:1)-FB
---
Tales to Astonish 47 (6:2-6:7)

TTA 47 presents some problems. It breaks down as follows:

TTA 47 (1-6:1) [Ant-Man & Wasp stop Trago, a petty thief]
TTA 47 (6:2-6:7) [Two months later: Trago begins studying Indian magic under Ghazandi] {Before Avengers 1}
TTA 47 (7-8:3) [Months later: Trago returns to the US & Hank & Jan notice one of his posters] {After Avengers 1}
TTA 47 (8:4-13:3) [A few days later: Hank & Jan stop Trago from using his mystic knowledge for crime]
TTA 47 (13:4-13:7) [Several weeks later: Hank & Jan see Trago playing at a bistro]

I’m going to assume that none of this flashback, and compress the months and weeks, allowing as much space as possible between Hank & Jan’s appearances in TTA 46 & 48, so TTA 47 will appear both before and after Avengers 1. I notice that in Ant-Man’s chronology, TTA 47 (7-13) is listed after Avengers 1, but he has no listing for TTA 47 (1-6). I’ve addressed this in a separate post.

Journey Into Mystery 83 (1-13:5) and (13:6-13:8). (This was not split in your original draft. Any reason why you would split it here? Second segment is right after the aliens have gone where Thor changes to Blake and gets spotted by NATO soldiers.)

That was a mistake – somehow a segment from JIM 84 got mixed up there and mislabled.

Marvels: Eye of the Camera 1 (17-19)

Yep – the first listing is redundant. The second listing shows the correct placement as per Marvel Saga 8.

Journey Into Mystery 89: (I would move it right after JIM 88. Narrative says he's flying back from his last adventures and there is none other between the two according to Index. Right now you placed it in the middle of JIM 90.)

I think my brain was getting foggy by this point – and i may be getting that way again. I’ve placed JIM 89 after FF 12 as per Saga 8. I’m sure Thor has had many undocumented adventures.

Amazing Spider-Man 4 (6:8-7:2)-FB: Sandman's origin. A few monts before main story. (I would place it right before ASM 2/2.)

I’ve combined ASM 4-FB ~ MTIO 86-FB ~ FNSM@ 1-FB [Sandman Origin] and placed it after ASM 1.

Strange Tales 116/1 (2)-FB: (Should absolutely go after Fantastic Four 14, since this flashback explains how Puppet Master escapes the giant octopus at the end of FF 14.)

Absolutely!

Fantastic Four 17: No gap after FF 16 as the team bids farewell to Ant-Man right after their adventure in the Micro-World. (Placing JIM 94 between the two makes no sense because it spans over a few days.)
Amazing Spider-Man 5 (3:4-3:7)-FB: Explains why Doom survived the fall from his fortress. (Should be placed right after FF 17.)

Agreed.

Strange Tales Annual 2/1: (It is illogical that the Human Torch would complain about his popularity after the good press he got in Strange Tales 112 -- although he is an egotistic hot-headed teenager. I would place this one right before ST 112 (even though MCP places it immediately after).)

If the MCP wants to move it, that's fine. But like you say, Johnny’s a moody teenager.

Amazing Spider-Man 6: There is no reason why this should occur before Avengers. Was published/released 2 months after.

My placement reflects the ASM Index and MCP, which both place ASM 6 prior to A 1.5, where Spidey, along with other characters, learn of the Avengers debut. Admittedly, this is a week after Avengers 1, but Marvel Saga 10 also places ASM 6 before A 1. I’ve also added in Untold Tales of Spider-Man 1-2 & Spider-Man Family 9/2, which I previously had after Avengers 1, but I would rather keep them with ASM 6.

On a side note, placing comics around cover dates for a team book is never a good solution. Team books often need to be placed way out of publication date due to the goings on of the individual characters.

Journey Into Mystery 96: No reason why it it should be so close to JIM 94-95.

Is there any reason that it shouldn’t go here, or is this just a personal preference? It’s cover dated Sept, and I have it between FF 18 (Sept) and ASM 5 (Oct).

Tales of Suspense 44 (13:7): One month after getting back from Ancient Egypt, Stark attends the premiere of a Cleopatra movie. I would put those three last items right before Avengers 1.

In keeping with the MCP’s placement of TOS 44, for the purpose of this chronology i’m going to wink at the “one month later” and simply separate (13:7) as far as I can from the bulk of the story.

I see you have split Fantastic Four Annual 1/1 and placed them really far apart. To me it's all in one block so your reasoning eludes me. There are no stories I know of that occur in between, and no big time gap is mentioned. But the stories does logically span over several days: Namor's planning, FF preparing for the cruise (I'm still amazed how quick is was in the '60s to book a plane ticket or a cruise!), time to settle and relax aboard the boat, organization of a conference at the United Nations, etc. I would merge them back in place it after Peter Parker Spider-Man 2001 Annual 1.

It’s not such big gap as it appears, as a lot of this stuff is happening in quick succession. I’ve assumed some time is required between Namor being crowned and his attack on New York, as you also mention. Impetuous as the Sub-Mariner is, it would surely take him at least some days to get his armies ready.

I like what you've done with TOS 40 and JIM 87-88 and with the overall listing. Good job!

Thanks for that – at least I did something you liked.

Everything discussed here, and all other items that you’ve addressed have been incorporated into the list.

Please don’t feel put out if I don’t always agree with you on something. Rest assured, I read and check every point you bring up.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Tales to Astonish 47 (1-6:1)-FB
---
Tales to Astonish 47 (6:2-6:7)

...
I’m going to assume that none of this flashback, and compress the months and weeks, allowing as much space as possible between Hank & Jan’s appearances in TTA 46 & 48, so TTA 47 will appear both before and after Avengers 1. I notice that in Ant-Man’s chronology, TTA 47 (7-13) is listed after Avengers 1, but he has no listing for TTA 47 (1-6). I’ve addressed this in a separate post.

Pretty odd that MCP would make an Ant-Man’s chronology listing for TTA 47 (7-13), but not for TTA 47 (1-6). It still implies that there is a gap and the first part is simply an omission on their part. And in the Wasp chronology (which should follow Ant-Man's since they are always together in that story), MCP only lists TTA 47. I'M OK with your placement, but it's still a bit of a stretch (no pun intended) that so many months would separate TTA 46 and 48 (but this is Marvel time, right?). This is why I don't mind considering that TTA (1-6) may have occurred very soon after Janet became the Wasp.
On a side note, in your listing you now have this:
Tales to Astonish 47 (1-6:1)
Tales to Astonish 47 (6) (should be removed since you place (6:2-6:7) right before Avengers 1, which was indeed your best option.)

Journey Into Mystery 89: (I would move it right after JIM 88. Narrative says he's flying back from his last adventures and there is none other between the two according to Index. Right now you placed it in the middle of JIM 90.)

I think my brain was getting foggy by this point – and i may be getting that way again. I’ve placed JIM 89 after FF 12 as per Saga 8. I’m sure Thor has had many undocumented adventures.

Agreed that it may refer to any untold adventure. But I still don't get why you've placed Journey Into Mystery 90 (1-2:2) before JIM 89.

Amazing Spider-Man 6: There is no reason why this should occur before Avengers. Was published/released 2 months after.

My placement reflects the ASM Index and MCP, which both place ASM 6 prior to A 1.5, where Spidey, along with other characters, learn of the Avengers debut. Admittedly, this is a week after Avengers 1, but Marvel Saga 10 also places ASM 6 before A 1. I’ve also added in Untold Tales of Spider-Man 1-2 & Spider-Man Family 9/2, which I previously had after Avengers 1, but I would rather keep them with ASM 6.

On a side note, placing comics around cover dates for a team book is never a good solution. Team books often need to be placed way out of publication date due to the goings on of the individual characters.

I totally agree with you on that. And since there is no reference that relates ASM 6 with Avengers 1 specifically, both ways are possible.

I like what you've done with TOS 40 and JIM 87-88 and with the overall listing. Good job!

Thanks for that – at least I did something you liked.

Don't get me wrong, I really think you've done an amazing job! It is really hard to put order in the chaos of Marvel Universe. My apologies if I'm too much of a nitpicker but such an interesting list was worth looking into so I compared it with my notes. It is my belief that there is always room for improvement. Though sometimes I may have the tendency to beat a subject to death!

Everything discussed here, and all other items that you’ve addressed have been incorporated into the list.

Please don’t feel put out if I don’t always agree with you on something. Rest assured, I read and check every point you bring up.

I'm perfectly fine if we sometimes have different opinions, but given your last update, it would seem we agree most of the times. I appreciate that you considered my suggestions and I'm glad if I could contribute to this. I promise that I will always double-check on my end and provide informed data before I make my suggestions.

Now I'll take a look at Birth of the Avengers to Engagement of Reed & Sue and get back to you with my findings when I'm done.

[StrayLamb]

On a side note, in your listing you now have this:
Tales to Astonish 47 (1-6:1)
Tales to Astonish 47 (6) (should be removed since you place (6:2-6:7) right before Avengers 1, which was indeed your best option.)

Yep - one of my bourbon-drenched brain's oversights - fixed.

Agreed that it may refer to any untold adventure. But I still don't get why you've placed Journey Into Mystery 90 (1-2:2) before JIM 89.

Mostly because JIM 89 & 90 are close together, and i believed the Xartans may have needed the extra time to get to Earth.

Amazing Spider-Man 6: There is no reason why this should occur before Avengers. Was published/released 2 months after.

My placement reflects the ASM Index and MCP, which both place ASM 6 prior to A 1.5, where Spidey, along with other characters, learn of the Avengers debut. Admittedly, this is a week after Avengers 1, but Marvel Saga 10 also places ASM 6 before A 1. I’ve also added in Untold Tales of Spider-Man 1-2 & Spider-Man Family 9/2, which I previously had after Avengers 1, but I would rather keep them with ASM 6.

On a side note, placing comics around cover dates for a team book is never a good solution. Team books often need to be placed way out of publication date due to the goings on of the individual characters.

I totally agree with you on that. And since there is no reference that relates ASM 6 with Avengers 1 specifically, both ways are possible.

That's true, but i believe i've erred on the side of the established indexes and Marvel Saga.

Don't get me wrong, I really think you've done an amazing job! It is really hard to put order in the chaos of Marvel Universe. My apologies if I'm too much of a nitpicker but such an interesting list was worth looking into so I compared it with my notes. It is my belief that there is always room for improvement. Though sometimes I may have the tendency to beat a subject to death!

Ha - No problem - i offer these lists from my own scribblings as a basis for discussion and improvement.

I'm perfectly fine if we sometimes have different opinions, but given your last update, it would seem we agree most of the times. I appreciate that you considered my suggestions and I'm glad if I could contribute to this. I promise that I will always double-check on my end and provide informed data before I make my suggestions.

All of the ideas and comments you've brought up have added considerably to the the overall accuracy of the chronology. I'm glad you're getting into it, but remember, there's not always a perfect fit, and sometimes it just comes down to a matter of personal choice. This particular section, FF 1 to Av 1, was always going to be tricky.

Now I'll take a look at Birth of the Avengers to Engagement of Reed & Sue and get back to you with my findings when I'm done.

I'll have a new bottle of bourbon at the ready, to fortify myself for the onslaught.

[Col_Fury]

A slight quibble from me about publication dates, but yes, plot trumps publication order.

Also, for what it's worth, bourbon is fine but I'm a scotch man, myself. Johnnie Walker and I are pals!

Keep it up everyone, you're doing great!

[StrayLamb]

A slight quibble from me about publication dates, but yes, plot trumps publication order.

Quibble away, Colonel! I compiled the main bulk of these chronologies quite some time ago, with an occasional tweak here and there along the way. At the time, i gave little thought to publication date, and more to an imaginary calendar. I've since altered my thinking to bring myself more in tune with your layouts. If you think anything stands out too much, let me know.

Also, for what it's worth, bourbon is fine but I'm a scotch man, myself. Johnnie Walker and I are pals!

My best mate for most of my adult life, now unfortunately departed before his time since the Big C got him, was a Johnny Walker man. We were pretty much known as Bourbon and Scotch. I've also been known to dip into a barrel of Jamaica Rum on occasion as well.

Keep it up everyone, you're doing great!

Thanx! And thanx to everyone who has and will contribute! There's more that needs hashing out yet, especially regarding the X-Men.

[Col_Fury]

Just a quibble in general.

Here's to bourbon and scotch. And (to what I ALWAYS toast to); To absent friends! *takes a drink*

[RobinHoodMtl]

One Bourbon... One Scotch... One beer! Like Thorogood says... Though for scotch, my old friend JW was a pal for a while, now he only serves me ginger aled cocktails, but for pure enjoyment, I'll sip a fine Bow More and let the burnt wood aroma sink in while I savor the smell of a pipe. Yeah, I'm that old fashioned!

@StrayLamb, I got back to work after a long break so that onslaught might take some time. You can rest easy for a couple of weeks!

[StrayLamb]

@StrayLamb, I got back to work after a long break so that onslaught might take some time. You can rest easy for a couple of weeks!

Excellent.! I need to catch up on some of my reading + raking up of leaves in the yard. Looking forward to the next round.

Also, i got to see George Thorogood & the Destroyers a couple of years back, on a double bill with Joe Cocker, just before the great man passed over the gulf. Thorogood puts on a great performance!

[robfj]

I have a problem with your breakdown of Hulk's origin in Incredible Hulk #1 and Uncanny Origins #5:-
UO5(1-5)
UO5(6:1-6:2)~IH1(1-3:1)
UO5(6:3-10)~IH1(3:2-4:6)
UO5(11-14)~IH1(4:7-6)
UO5(15-20)~IH1(7-14)
UO5(21-22)

The last 3 sections are OK:-
UO5(11-14)~IH1(4:7-6) Immediately after the gamma bomb.
UO5(15-20)~IH1(7-14) Parts 2&3 of the original story.
UO5(21-22) Later epilogue where Hulk turns green.

(I'll ignore p1 in both issues which are just splash pages, which will be conventionally included in the 1st scene.)

For the 1st half what I see is in UO5 is:-
UO5(2-4) P2 Somebody dares Rick Jones to sneak onto the army base. P3 Bruce Banner muses about things. P4 RJ accepts the dare.
UO5(5)~IH1(2:1-2:7) BB is going to test his Gamma Bomb for Gen'l Ross. His assistant Igor expresses doubts. Betty Ross is supportive. (There is lots of identical dialogue in these scenes.)
UO5(6) RJ sneaks onto the base.
UO5(7-10)~IH1(2:8-4:6) A bit more BB/BR/GR chat. BB spots a teen on the test site. He tells Igor to delay the countdown and drives over to warn RJ. He gets RJ to shelter but the bomb goes off while BB is exposed. (Again duplicated dialogue including the 1st panel in each version)

Maybe pages 5 and 6 got switched in your head so that all the new scenes got included as 2-5. Then UO5(6-10)~IH2(2:1-4:6) would be continuous. (The Issue Analysis for UO5 confirms that RJ's extra scenes are in 1-4 & 6.)

Your split between IH1 p3:1 and 3:2 divides the scene up into the BB/Igor/Gen'l Ross/Betty Ross conversation and the BB/Igor/RJ bomb test. Unfortunately the tail end of the BB/BR/GR conversation in IH1(2:8-3:1) is delayed until UO5(7:1-7:2). (Each panel has matching dialogue.)

If you want to maintain that split we would have to have (including splash pages):-
UO5(1-4)
UO5(5)~IH1(1-2:7)
UO5(6)
UO5(7:1-7:2)~IH1(2:8-3:1)
UO5(7:3-10)~IH1(3:2-4:6)

[robfj]

I forgot to add something about Contest of Champions III (1-3)-FB. What issue of COC3 does it refer to? And who's in the FB?

And X-Men II 38/2-42/2 should be X-Men 38/2-42/2.

[StrayLamb]

I have a problem with your breakdown of Hulk's origin in Incredible Hulk #1 and Uncanny Origins #5:-
For the 1st half what I see is in UO5 is:-
UO5(2-4) P2 Somebody dares Rick Jones to sneak onto the army base. P3 Bruce Banner muses about things. P4 RJ accepts the dare.
UO5(5)~IH1(2:1-2:7) BB is going to test his Gamma Bomb for Gen'l Ross. His assistant Igor expresses doubts. Betty Ross is supportive. (There is lots of identical dialogue in these scenes.)
UO5(6) RJ sneaks onto the base.
UO5(7-10)~IH1(2:8-4:6) A bit more BB/BR/GR chat. BB spots a teen on the test site. He tells Igor to delay the countdown and drives over to warn RJ. He gets RJ to shelter but the bomb goes off while BB is exposed. (Again duplicated dialogue including the 1st panel in each version)

Maybe pages 5 and 6 got switched in your head so that all the new scenes got included as 2-5.

Thanks for the fix-ups, and making an excuse for me! I'll take all the help i can get in both departments.

Hey, was that really Somebody in UO5(2-4) P2?

I forgot to add something about Contest of Champions III (1-3)-FB. What issue of COC3 does it refer to? And who's in the FB?

That should read Contest of Champions III 3 (1-3)-FB [12yo Jeannine Sauvage becomes the new Guillotine]

Since Guillotine is 27yo in Contest of Champions, this is 15 years earlier. In my own timeline, that places this squarely in Year One. That's supposition on my part, however, so feel free to ignore this listing if you want to place it further back.

And X-Men II 38/2-42/2 should be X-Men 38/2-42/2.

Thanks, all fix-ups edited into main list. And may i say i've been following your Iron Man posts with great interest.

[robfj]

Thanks for the kind mention in your replies to RobinHoodMtl. Like him I welcome your chronologies and have started turning them into spreadsheets.


Here are some observations on the X-Men origins. A mixture of detailed corrections and chronology musings.


For Marvel Girl:-

I note that only X-Men Origins: Jean Grey (17) is included because later pages are XM#1 and beyond and earlier pages are her earlier life presumably pre-FF#1.
I note also your positioning of this based on a news report about the Avenging Angel.


For Iceman:-

I can't fault your mapping of XMO: Iceman (14-30) onto XM#44/2-46/2.
But XMO: Iceman (1-13) covers Bobby Drake's earlier life and so I would expect that too to be before FF#1.


For Angel:-

Uncanny Origins #3 (3:6-5) should be just (5). (3-4) is correctly used earlier just after he starts to sprout wings in XM#54/2(3:1-3:5).

I guess you've deliberately ignored XM#54/2(3:6-5) in favour of Angel: Revelations #4-5's retelling of the school fire episode.

I would say that the break in UO#3 between XM#55/2 and XM#56/2 occurs between 13:3 and 13:4, not 14 and 15.
XM#55/2 ends with Avenging Angel returning home to find Cyclops and Iceman waiting for him, and they tell him who they are. This happens in UO#3(13:1-13:3).
XM#56/2 starts with them fighting as in UO#3(13:4-14). UO#3(15) has PX mentally contacting Angel to tell him of the bomb he doesn't know he's carrying, which doesn't happen until partway through XM#56/2.
Plus 17:4 is the end of p17 so the :4 is unnecessary.
The result is:-
XM#55/2~UO#3(8-13:3)
XM#56/2~UO#3(13:4-17)

I presume Marvel Fanfare #50-FB is (26:1-26:2) where Warren dates Cressida Drew before he grows wings, rather than her fantasy in (11-12:4) where she sleeps with him after he gets wings and gets pregnant without telling him.

I suspect some of Angel's origin should also be before this history section.
XM#54/2(1-2) has Warren falling out of a tree and he's obviously pre-teen there.
The main action of XM#54/2 happens when WW sprouts wings, and this sensibly must have happened near the end of his time at boarding school. I could argue that UO#3(2:4) is WW being *sent* to boarding school and so must happen some years before this section of Marvel history.I'd probably include the generic UO#3(2:5) with it and remove the whole UO#3(2:4-2:5) entry from here.
Possibly the Cressida Drew thing is early enough to be off the map too.
There was probably a span of weeks while his wings grew and then he concealed them before the final fire episode..
So maybe Angel: Revelations #1-2 and XM#54/2(3:1-3:5) where he starts to grow wings should be separated to even earlier before UO#3(3-4) and Angel: Revelations #3 where he has the full-grown wings.
You do have a gap after Revelations #3 where he continues to keep them secret for a while.


For Cyclops:-

Technically only p16-22 of UO#1 correspond to XM#40/2-42/2, involving Jack O'Diamonds.
p14-15 belong to XM#39/2. p12-13 belong to XM#38/2.
p1-11 depict much earlier events ranging from the UFO attack on the family plane to Mr Sinister's involvement in his orphanage life.

I don't see a particular reason to keep XM#38/2 and 39/2 separate from 40/2-42/2 unless you want to keep your spreadsheet notes separate.
So it could be just:-
XM#38/2-42/2~UO#1(12-22)

I note that you don't include any of XMO: Cyclops. This seems to completely ignore the contents of XM#38/2-42/2 and UO#1(12-22) and also the earlier part of UO#1 where Scott Summers has increasing eye-trouble and an optician finds that ruby-quartz glasses help, which Scott is obviously wearing in XM#38/2-42/2. It just has Scott running away from the orphanage after his 1st major eye-blast and immediately meeting Prof X who provides him with his Cyclops visor. I guess like the MCP you consider all the ignored stuff to happen between 2 parts of XMO:C, and none of XMO:C is within this section of history.


For Beast:-

XM#15(16:1-16:3)-FB is actually (16:2-16:4)-FB.
XM#15(16:4-16:5)-FB is actually (16:5-16:6)-FB.
(16:1) is a non-FB bit with Sentinels in.

I presume you consider XM#49/2-50/2 to be before FF#1? I agree about that even though 50/2 ends with a 1-panel app of Conquistador noticing Hank McCoy catching crooks during his football tryout. Because Hank goes on to become a football star before Conquistador nabs him in 51/2.

I don't know why you place UO#6's version of Beast's origin in (1-18:2) as a single entry and after JIM#83. I get:-
UO#6(1-14) early life ~XM4#9/2-50/2, still pre-FF#1.
UO#6(15-17:2)~XM#51/2-53/2(1-5:4) The Conquistador stuff.
UO#6(17:3)~XM#15(16:5-16:6)-FB PX visits HM's family.
UO#6(17:4-22) is later, starting with XM#1 with Marvel Girl and Magneto.

I guess you follow wolframbane's judgement on XMO: Beast that whatever is different in it is too different to allow it to be canonical.


That's all, folks.

[StrayLamb]

Thanks for that, robfj. I knew the early X-Men listings needed a fix-up, but it wasn't on my agenda to go back thru that material anytime soon, so i appreciate you picking up the slack there. All fix-ups have been incorporated into the main list above.

[robfj]

I just checked your updates. Everything went swimmingly until the very last hurdle (to mix sports metaphors).

You've split up the contents of Uncanny Origins #6 and connected them to other bits of Beast's origin. But you left UO#6(1-18:2) still also after JIM#83.

[StrayLamb]

Doh! Looks like that last hurdle sunk me. Fixed. (Maybe.)