Hulk in Tales to Astonish

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Leoparis
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Hulk in Tales to Astonish

Post by Leoparis »

Note: I started this two months ago. I first gathered all earlier posts relating to the Hulk during this period. I wanted to check some chronologies, Fin Fang Foom and X-Men First Class, before posting but this was too time-consuming. So I put this in the open.

Once he's got his own series in Tales to Astonish, the Hulk stays in his corner of the Marvel Universe with only one guest appearance in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3. This makes it a good period to insert flashback stories.
This is also the period in which Banner's secret is revealed. Here is a handy summary: In TTA 64 Rick Jones tells POTUS, in 77 he tells Talbot, in 78 he tells Betty, but she has doubts until she sees the transformation in 87, in 92 a "TV special" asks "all citizens" to report Banner or his alter ego the Hulk, in Hulk 103 the Hulk-Banner situation is the topic of a popular talk show.

Here are some posts I unearthed related to this period:
Spoiler:
Hulk Smash Avengers 1
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... =2&t=10519
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... =2&t=11119
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... =2&t=14410

1960s X-Men: First Class II 5/1 Here's the text from the post: The X-Men are sent after the Hulk. They do not know Banner and the Hulk are the same. The Hulk is aided by Rick Jones. This must take place between Tales to Astonish I 79/2 and 80/2. At the end of 79/2, the Hulk has returned from an alternate future and sulks in the desert. At the beginning of 80/2, the Hulk is still sulking in the desert and then goes on an adventure that will lead him to fight the Secret Empire. This is the only break where the Hulk can really do anything. Rick has returned from being Captain America's sidekick, but is mostly living at the army base yelling at Ross. This story supposes the Hulk, depressed, heads north to escape the Army. Rick follows. Ross calls in the X-Men (through Duncan) and the X-Men learn the truth about the Hulk. Rick has recently told Glenn Talbot and Betty Ross at this point, but it is not yet common knowledge. Afterwards, the Hulk realizes there is no peace in the north either, returns to the desert (losing Rick) and continues sulking.
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... f=2&t=4637

Fb in Hulk 30.1
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... f=2&t=5766

Hulk in Russia
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... f=2&t=5651

Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... f=2&t=7655
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... =2&t=10495

H2 393/2
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... 393#p42924

1968 Hulk in SS 4
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... f=2&t=5532

Av 51 TTA 101
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... =2&t=15289
The current GCD chrono:
TTA 59 newsreel shots of Hulk battling Spider-Man, Southwest
**HV.FFF Antarctica Banner/Hulk public knowledge, move after TAS 92.
SENTRY2 3-FB
UTSM '97
JIM 112 cameo
TTA 60/2
TTA 61/2
TTA 62/2
TTA 63/2 (1 - 3:6)
HSMASHA 1 Southwest Masters of Evil
AC 11/2-BTS
TTA 63/2 (3:7 - 10)
TTA 64/2 Jones tells POTUS who is Hulk
TTA 65/2 USSR
TTA 66/2 USSR
TTA 67/2 USSR Mongolia
TTA 68/2 POTUS
TTA 69/2 (1 - 3:2)
TTA 69/2 (3:3) ~ A 17 (3:4)
TTA 69/2 (3:4 - 7)
TTA 69/2 (8:1) ~ A 17 (9:6)
TTA 69/2 (8:2 - 8:3) ~ A 17 (14:2 - 14:3)
TTA 69/2 (8:4 - 10:5)
TTA 69/2 (10:6) ~ A 17 (20:5)
TTA 69/2 (10:7)-OP
TTA 70/2
TTA 71/2
TTA 72/2
TTA 73/2 Watcher, Moon
TTA 74/2 Watcher, Moon, Leader dies
TTA 75/2 Watcher, Wash D.C. future
TTA 76/2 future, Executioner
TTA 77/2 future, Jones tells Talbot
TTA 78/2 desert cave, army, Betty learns secret
TTA 79/2 Hercules
[H2 30.1-FB] cameo Ross, Fortean
M/M:MOTP Giant-Man, Beast, Thing (Fin Fang Foom? unnamed)
TTA 81/2-FB Hulk vs army
TTA 80/2 Tyrannus, Mole Man
TTA 81/2 Secret Empire, Tyrannus, Boomerang
TTA 82/2 Boomerang, army, Secret Empire
TTA 83/2 (1 - 9:2) Hulk & Betty in cave, Secret Empire, Boomerang, army
M/M:DDINO-FB unlikely, better during TTA 78 / 82
M/M:DDINO unlikely
TTA 83/2 (9:3 - 10:7)
TTA 84/2 (1 - 4) arrives in NYC, Rampage
TTA 84/2 (5:1 - 5:2)-OP ~ TTA 84 (10:4 - 11:1)-OP
TTA 84/2 (5:3 - 10)
ASM@ 3 NYC
SAVH (41 - 51)-FB City, Hulk eating at night Steranko cvr homage
TTA 85
TTA 85/2
TTA 86/2
TTA 87/2
TTA 88/2 POTUS, H leaves NYC
TTA 89/2
TTA 90/2 smashes large city bridge (Chicago, St Louis, etc) then goes west
TTA 91/2
IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) army, Ross, few years before Joe Fixit, midwest, doesn't fit
ST 156 FF /DD Spidey Thor /Cap Hawkeye Scarlet Witch/ X-Men/ Wasp Goliath IM Hulk
TTA 92/2 Hulk = Banner on TV, in NYC
TTA 93/2 leaves NYC
TTA 94/2 Northeast? Great Lakes? Canada?
TTA 95/2 off-world
TTA 96/2 (1 - 6:2)
WCA@ 3/3 (5:1) Hulk vs New Men delete
TTA 96/2 (6:3 - 10:4)
WCA@ 3/3 (6:3 - 6:4) Hulk sent back to Earth (6:4 no app)
TTA 96/2 (10:5 - 10:8)
TTA 97/2
TTA 98/2
TTA 99
TTA 100
TTA 101 (1 - 2)
A 51
TTA 101 (3 - 11)

The break in TTA 63
I reviewed this and see nothing wrong with this break. This is set during the time the Hulk was transitioning from a brute to a child.

Hulk in Russia
Although I originally praised the placement of the flashback in Hulk 621/2 during Hulk 189 (Possibility #1), the Hulk's chronology is quite constrained with his Defenders appearances to fit a weeks- or months-long flashback and may require an alternate placement. Bruce Banner has "escaped overseas to Russia for a bit, being so far away from Ross, Rick, Betty...everything." The placement doesn't fit with Bruce's stated intention. At the time of Hulk 189, Betty is married to Talbot, and Hulk's mind is on Jarella, as shown in the very next issue, IH2 190. Rick has also been absent for years. There is no escaping overseas either. Bruce just found himself to be in Russia.

Possibility #2
One of the earlier proposed spots is in the TTA period. The text in 621/2 says it occurs "a few years" after H 1. It fits better with the intention to go far away from Ross, Rick & Betty. In TTA 67 page 7 the Hulk expresses this sentiment "Hulk once had friend--Rick--Rick! Boy--ran away! There is nothing for Hulk--nothing but running--fighting!" There is a possible story break earlier between pages 5 & 6, just before Hulk expresses the longing to leave "Strange land! Hulk lost! Must go--find way home--!" Earlier in TTA 66 page 8 Banner was giving up on Betty, but mostly because he thought he was going to die, "If only I could have explained to Betty. But now--it's too late. Too late for anything--except trying to die as bravely as--"
TTA 67 (1-5)
IHS 621/2 move to here?
TTA 67 (6-10)

Possibility #3
Maybe looking at stories where the Hulk is already in Russia was not the correct approach. Banner's journal states that he escaped overseas to Russia, implying he had to cross an ocean. The writer of 621/2 may have meant his story to take place in the breaks between TTA 83 & 84 or TTA 91 & 92. The Hulk is with Rick, Betty & Ross on the last page of TTA 83 and leaps away in anger. On the first page of TTA 84 the Hulk says, "The Hulk is thru with hiding--thru with running." The former scene strangely echoes the Banner journal while the Hulk's words in the latter can refer to Banner's flight to Russia being at an end. One downside is that this presupposes that the Hulk somewhat shares Banner's sentiments. Another is the Hulk also seems to be in the same spot on both ends of the break.
TTA 83
IHS 621/2 move to here?
TTA 84

Possibility #4
At the end of TTA 91 the Hulk also walks away from Ross, Betty and Rick. At the start of TTA 92 Banner lives in NY in disguise. So here we have evidence of an intention on Banner's part to be away from Rick, Betty and Ross. An escapade to remote Russia or Siberia would not belie the circumstances at the beginning of TTA 92 (see below, neither the Hulk nor Banner have been seen in the US nor Europe since TTA 91 in spite of a nationwide manhunt). This is the best spot of all four spots considered: It takes place a few years after becoming Hulk, there is a manifest intention from Banner to be away from Rick, Ross and Betty and a reason, the manhunt, to escape overseas and to a place where he once had a true friend (TTA 66). New York is a port of arrival for ships arriving from Russia. Plus a possible break which is several weeks or months long.
TTA 91
*IHS 621/2 move to here
TTA 92

Leader flashback in TTA 73/2
This flashback is made up of two panels. In the first one we see a photograph and his hands from his viewpoint so he's on-panel. In the second we have his voice transmitted electronically from a satellite, which would be minimally a voice-over. So he's not bts either way.
LEADER II/SAMUEL STERNS
TTA 73/2-FB (remove BTS)

Marvel Monsters: Devil Dinosaur and the break between TTA 79 & 80
TTA 83/2 (1 - 9:2)
M/M:DDINO-FB unlikely, better during TTA 78 / 82
M/M:DDINO
It seems the current spot was chosen due to a picture of the Hulk holding a military vehicle. However in M/M:DDINO the vehicle is a tank and in TTA 83 it's a jeep. Also Rick is present in TTA 83 right in front of the Hulk and that's a poor choice to place a story even if the Hulk was returned to that exact spot in time by the two Celestials, which doesn't seem to be the case: In M/M:DDINO the image of the Hulk's return to Earth does not match TTA 83/2 (9:3). He's clearly not in the same spot he was at story's beginning. He's jumping away, maybe north to Colorado for First Class II 5. Still, the scenery in TTA 78-82 matches the desert in M/M:DDINO. There is a story break between 79 & 80, indeed three flashbacks are placed there (MMOTP, H2 30.1, TTA 81). Since M/M:DDINO comes before M/M:MOTP in the collected edition, I place it before in the chronology.

The Hulk appearance in H2 30.1 can be the same panel as the one in TTA 81 (2:1)-FB (Ross ordering soldiers while Hulk leaps away) and so it makes it unnecessary to add this generic panel to Hulk's chronology. There are however two other generic scenes of Fortean and Ross which do not include the Hulk. So H2 30.1 should remain where it is in Ross & Fortean's chronologies.

Greg Baker, who made the best attempt to include X-Men First Class, places First Class II 5/1 in that same break.
I planned to read the whole run as he proposed to see if it fit but the days are too short.

M/M:MOTP There are a couple of monsters looking like Fin Fang Foom but never named. Since we have an FFF waking up in Antarctica after hundreds of years in H v FFF, which I place during Hulk's first visit to Antarctica in IH 109 after he's been outed as Banner in TTA 92, we cannot have an FFF appearance before IH 109. Those lookalikes can simply be some of the other Makluans--FFF's alien race--stranded on Earth that we see next in IM 274.

TTA 79/2
*[H2 30.1-FB] delete
*M/M:DDINO-FB move to here
*M/M:DDINO move to here
*First Class II 5/1 insert, Beast first meets Hulk
M/M:MOTP Beast allied to Hulk

The break between TTA 91 & 92
Two stories are currently placed in this break but you cannot place every story there: at the start of TTA 92 a journalist says the Hulk has not been seen since the events of 91 and all citizens are required to report either Banner or the Hulk. Even the Teen Brigade says there has been no sign of the Hulk "in the Dallas area," "between L.A. and 'Frisco," "in Europe," "in the Midwest," nor in the Southern U.S. and that they should start looking for him in Mexico and Southern America. As noted above you could fit there H 621/2--which takes place in remote Russia--but not any overtly public appearance.

The placement there of IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) doesn't fit. The story takes place in the Midwest, the Hulk fights the army led by Ross, makes gigantic leaps through the countryside and then inadvertently stops a robber under the eyes of at least two chasing police cars. The army could have kept its operation secret (Ross says, "No comment" to an investigating journalist in TTA 92) but not the police and robber. In addition, this first part is supposed to take place only a "few years" before the Joe Fixit era in Vegas. So the appearance is too public and the TTA era seems too early as a placement. Since this is drawn by Herb Trimpe I would move it to Herb's tenure, which I will cover next.

ST 156 In a panel the Hulk appears alongside Iron Man (in his riveted mask!), Goliath and the Wasp, all four being original Avengers, while three later Avengers--Captain America, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch--appear in another grouping. Thor appears alongside Spider-Man and Daredevil, a group later seen in FF 73. There is ground for an untold story. The last time the Avengers tried to find the Hulk was in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3 when the Hulk was in New York. They had not looked for him outside of New York since Fantastic Four 25. This panel likely occurs in New York, where are based all depicted characters. It's unlikely that the Hulk appears as an ally based on the dialog in Avengers 100 (which notes it as the first time he sides WITH the Avengers since Avengers 2). So, do the Avengers in answer to the manhunt in TTA 92 try to capture the Hulk after he is spotted by a New Yorker on page 7 of that issue? There is a possible break between pages 7 & 8. Moving his appearance to this spot will not affect any other characters and will respect the narration in TTA 92 as regards the Hulk's disappearance since the previous issue.

TTA 91/2
*IHS 621/2 move to here
**IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) DELETE FROM HERE
**ST 156 MOVE FROM HERE
**TTA 92/2 (1 - 7) split here
**ST 156 MOVE TO HERE
**TTA 92/2 (8 - 10) split issue
TTA 93/2

WWH:GC 2 (8 - 9)-FB in a Canadian mall between IH2 124 & 125.
This insert breaks the geographical consistency between IH2 124 & 125 in Hulk's chrono. IH2 125 picks up shortly after 124 and the less stories in-between the better.
Synopsis: Due to Hulk fright (actually heroin use) a pregnant woman suffers a difficult delivery, which makes her child retarded. The child is later subjected to a gamma experiment, which turns him into Prodigy of the Gamma Corps in 2008.
He looks like a teen or pre-teen there. So this flashback should take place as early as possible. As a frame of reference, Franklin Richards, born in 1968, was still a boy by Secret Wars II (2015). The earliest time in his own series that the Hulk appears to be in Canada is TTA 94 (Aug 67) where he meets two caribou hunters by a lake. There is a break between TTA 93 & 94 where he can have hit a mall.

TTA 93/2
WWH:GC 2 (8 - 9)-FB move to here
TTA 94/2
...
WWH:GC 2 (8 - 9)-FB move from here
IH2 125

West Coast Avengers Annual 3/3 Hulk High Evolutionary
WCA@ 3/3 (5:1) Hulk vs New Men. This panel is a condensed version of the Hulk on pages 6-7 of TTA 96. All the information of that panel is already in TTA 96: Hulk fighting the Knights of Wundagore is shown in TTA 96 pages 6 & 7; the words from the High Evolutionary "I've been hurt" are synonymous with "I have been wounded" in TTA 96 page 6. Even the caption in the panel states that it is a retelling of TTA 94-96. For instance WCA@ 3/3 (6:1) which combines two panels from TTA 96 was not added. This panel is neither a new scene nor an expanded one but a condensed one.

*TTA 96/2 (1 - 6:2) delete
*WCA@ 3/3 (5:1) delete
TTA 96/2 (6:3 - 10:4) --> TTA 96/2 (1 - 10:4) modify

The panel WCA@ 3/3 (6:3) does take place between the two panels but contains no new information (the Hulk is teleported back to Earth). Plus the Hulk is not in 6:4. Is it really necessary? It certainly complexifies the reading of WCA@ 3/3 and makes a reader jump back and forth. So I'd streamline the chronology unless there is a compelling reason not to.

*TTA 96/2 (1 - 10:4) modify
*WCA@ 3/3 (6:3 - 6:4) delete?
TTA 96/2 (10:5 - 10:8)

Avengers 51
TTA 101 (1 - 2)
A 51-FB * ADD FB
TTA 101 (3 - 11)
RobinHoodMtl
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Re: Hulk in Tales to Astonish

Post by RobinHoodMtl »

Leoparis wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:51 am ...

ST 156 In a panel the Hulk appears alongside Iron Man (in his riveted mask!), Goliath and the Wasp, all four being original Avengers, while three later Avengers--Captain America, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch--appear in another grouping. Thor appears alongside Spider-Man and Daredevil, a group later seen in FF 73. There is ground for an untold story. The last time the Avengers tried to find the Hulk was in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3 when the Hulk was in New York. They had not looked for him outside of New York since Fantastic Four 25. This panel likely occurs in New York, where are based all depicted characters. It's unlikely that the Hulk appears as an ally based on the dialog in Avengers 100 (which notes it as the first time he sides WITH the Avengers since Avengers 2). So, do the Avengers in answer to the manhunt in TTA 92 try to capture the Hulk after he is spotted by a New Yorker on page 7 of that issue? There is a possible break between pages 7 & 8. Moving his appearance to this spot will not affect any other characters and will respect the narration in TTA 92 as regards the Hulk's disappearance since the previous issue.

TTA 91/2
*IHS 621/2 move to here
**IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) DELETE FROM HERE
**ST 156 MOVE FROM HERE
**TTA 92/2 (1 - 7) split here
**ST 156 MOVE TO HERE
**TTA 92/2 (8 - 10) split issue
TTA 93/2
I know, this conversation is old and decisions have been made to go along Leoparis' suggestions, but I feel that there is something wrong with this attempt to rationalize the grouping of all those heroes by panels. To me, it's more like an artistic attempt to tell the readers that everybody was listening to Supreme Hydra's threat. The Hulk has his usual angry look, but I'm not even sure he even understood what the message meant, let alone cared.

There is no panel background, and they all might as well have appeared in a single page-wide panel. We've all seen this kind of artistic liberty before. The fact that the Hulk appears with the founding Avengers does not necessary mean he was in their company when he heard the message, or otherwise prove that he was in New York. And as Leoparis points out, even Iron Man's armor is an anachronism. Since all official Indexes are listing the heroes' appearances and place it in their chronology, it means it's real. Too bad, no index was made for Hulk. This is why I see absolutely no reason to split TTA 92/2 this way. I would tend to side more with StrayLamb's chronology on this one, which places ST 156 during the long time gap between TTA 91"2 and TTA 92"2:
StrayLamb wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:26 am Defeat of Galactus to Master Plan of the Mandarin
...
Daredevil Annual 1 (13:2 - 13:4)-FB
Invisible Woman 2 (1 - 4)-FB
Strange Tales 156-158
Strange Tales 159 (1 - 5:1)
X-Men 28-29 [Late Autumn/Early Winter]
Amazing Spider-Man 48
Amazing Spider-Man 63 (12:5 - 13:1)-FB
Amazing Spider-Man 49
Amazing Spider-Man 63 (13:2)-FB
Cable & Deadpool 46 [Past Sequences]
Marvel Comics Presents 18/4 (4:4 - 5:4)-FB [Christmas Eve]
Daredevil 28-34 [Winter]
...
X-Men 34 (2:5 - 20)
Tales of Suspense 91
Tales to Astonish 92-93
Tales to Astonish 92/2-93/2
Tales to Astonish 94-95
...
In other words, I would unsplit TTA 92/2 and place ST 156 right before it, exactly the way it was before.
Leoparis
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Re: Hulk in Tales to Astonish

Post by Leoparis »

Leoparis wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:51 am
The break between TTA 91 & 92
Two stories are currently placed in this break but you cannot place every story there: at the start of TTA 92 a journalist says the Hulk has not been seen since the events of 91 and all citizens are required to report either Banner or the Hulk. Even the Teen Brigade says there has been no sign of the Hulk "in the Dallas area," "between L.A. and 'Frisco," "in Europe," "in the Midwest," nor in the Southern U.S." and that they should "start looking for him in Mexico and Southern America." As noted above you could fit there H 621/2--which takes place in remote Russia--but not any overtly public appearance.

The placement there of IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) doesn't fit. The story takes place in the Midwest, the Hulk fights the army led by Ross, makes gigantic leaps through the countryside and then inadvertently stops a robber under the eyes of at least two chasing police cars. The army could have kept its operation secret (Ross says, "No comment" to an investigating journalist in TTA 92) but not the police and robber. In addition, this first part is supposed to take place only a "few years" before the Joe Fixit era in Vegas. So the appearance is too public and the TTA era seems too early as a placement. Since this is drawn by Herb Trimpe I would move it to Herb's tenure, which I will cover next.

ST 156 In a panel the Hulk appears alongside Iron Man (in his riveted mask!), Goliath and the Wasp, all four being original Avengers, while three later Avengers--Captain America, Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch--appear in another grouping. Thor appears alongside Spider-Man and Daredevil, a group later seen in FF 73. There is ground for an untold story. The last time the Avengers tried to find the Hulk was in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3 when the Hulk was in New York. They had not looked for him outside of New York since Fantastic Four 25. This panel likely occurs in New York, where are based all depicted characters. It's unlikely that the Hulk appears as an ally based on the dialog in Avengers 100 (which notes it as the first time he sides WITH the Avengers since Avengers 2). So, do the Avengers in answer to the manhunt in TTA 92 try to capture the Hulk after he is spotted by a New Yorker on page 7 of that issue? There is a possible break between pages 7 & 8. Moving his appearance to this spot will not affect any other characters and will respect the narration in TTA 92 as regards the Hulk's disappearance since the previous issue.

TTA 91/2
*IHS 621/2 move to here
**IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) DELETE FROM HERE
**ST 156 MOVE FROM HERE
**TTA 92/2 (1 - 7) split here
**ST 156 MOVE TO HERE
**TTA 92/2 (8 - 10) split issue
TTA 93/2
I feel you've missed the key point of my demonstration. The problem I was trying to solve was the fact that the narration at the start of TTA 92 makes it clear nobody has seen the Hulk since TTA 91. So I had to remove ST 156 and IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) from that gap because these were two appearances that would have been noted given the way they are presented to us. This does not mean no story can take place in the gap, I placed IHS 621/2 there as it takes place in a region (Siberia) not covered by the Teen Brigade network (and fits the clues from IHS 621/2 about fleeing from Ross, Betty and Rick, which he does in TTA 91).

Your proposal to fit ST 156 back in the gap reintroduces the original problem. I do understand your contention that the groupings of heads does not necessarily imply the characters were together but they could have been together nonetheless. Steranko made the groupings he did and they can be meaningless as well as meaningful. If we treat the heads as real appearances, why not treating the groupings as real? Hulk happens to be in New York in TTA 92 and Avengers usually track him when he is (cf. ASM@ 3). Inserting ST 156 does not imply he did meet the Avengers but if he did meet them my listing solves the narration at TTA 92's beginning. To remove the split you have to decide that this is a random grouping and Hulk did not meet these Avengers.

As for the gap between TTA 91 and 92, it can be as long as you wish. Splitting TTA 92 does not reduce the gap nor does it move ST 156, it merely moves TTA 92/2 (1- 7), which involves only Banner.

If this is a reading order objection, ST 156 can still be read between TTA 91 & 92. Reading orders tend to ignore light issue-to-issue continuity and will insert dozens of stories even if the narration states only hours passed since the previous issue (Hulk 207-208 being an egregious example). For reading order purposes many stories can be read between TTA 91 & 92; for Hulk continuity purposes narration is a constraint.

The Hulk index by Olshevski does not mention ST 156.
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Re: Hulk in Tales to Astonish

Post by RobinHoodMtl »

Leoparis wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:46 am I feel you've missed the key point of my demonstration. The problem I was trying to solve was the fact that the narration at the start of TTA 92 makes it clear nobody has seen the Hulk since TTA 91. So I had to remove ST 156 and IH2 393/2 (1 - 5) from that gap because these were two appearances that would have been noted given the way they are presented to us. ...

Your proposal to fit ST 156 back in the gap reintroduces the original problem. I do understand your contention that the groupings of heads does not necessarily imply the characters were together but they could have been together nonetheless. Steranko made the groupings he did and they can be meaningless as well as meaningful. If we treat the heads as real appearances, why not treating the groupings as real? Hulk happens to be in New York in TTA 92 and Avengers usually track him when he is (cf. ASM@ 3). Inserting ST 156 does not imply he did meet the Avengers but if he did meet them my listing solves the narration at TTA 92's beginning. To remove the split you have to decide that this is a random grouping and Hulk did not meet these Avengers.
If I understand well, your attempt here was to solve the problem that TTA 92 statement about the Hulk not being seen since issue 91 is in conflit with ST 156 where he is supposedly in company of founding Avengers. But this problem is only caused by the assumption that the grouping is real. Yet, as I said, this kind of cameo has been done in the past to demonstrate that all heroes are witness to this or that event. Sometimes only heads are shown without any frame around them, sometimes groups are made, because it looks better and saves some space. Given Steranko's style, it could easily be just an artistic liberty, especially considering we never had any other materiel supporting a reunion of those four founding Avengers. IMHO, the reunion is but a metaphor that does not need to be rationalized. But if you assume that this reunion absolutely took place, then yes, your placement is a good idea.
Leoparis wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:46 am
If this is a reading order objection, ST 156 can still be read between TTA 91 & 92.
That was really not my point.
Leoparis wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:46 am The Hulk index by Olshevski does not mention ST 156.
Since all Official Indexes list the ST 156 cameos for all their respective heroes, it's clear that it's also true for the Hulk.
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