X:EXTRNTD /2

[michel]

I'm doubting the canonicity of X:EXTRNTD /2, the back-story of X-Men: The Exterminated.

In this story, set in the past, Cyclops, his wife Madelyne Pryor and his newborn Nathan are in Alaska, at his grandparents' house. So we're after UX 201, in which the X-Men come back from France and find out that Nathan is born, and then Scott loses the leadership of the X-Men to Storm.
Also present are Havok, Polaris, Corsair and the Starjammers. The story tells how Scott, at first keeping his distances with Madelyne, gets back with her after a talk with his father.

The problem comes from Corsair and the Starjammers. In UX 200, Lilandra and Corsair take Professor X to the Starjammer so Sikorsky can heal him. But in UX 201, the Starjammer's stardrive is totaled, so they can't go back to Earth. It's only way after, in NM 50, that Corsair learns that he's a grandfather, when Magik teleports into the Starjammer. And in NM 51, while probing the memories of the New Mutants, Xavier learns that the original X-Men have launched X-Factor. So by the time Scott learns that Jean Grey is alive and leaves Madelyne, Corsair and the Starjammers haven't been on Earth since Nathan's birth, so they can't be in Alaska in X:EXTRNTD /2.

What do you think?

[Leoparis]

I've once stated my opinion (for X-Men vs Hulk) that when a writer writes a chronology insert occurring back when he was the regular writer, we should make every effort to include it. That may not always be possible.

In NM 50 we don't see Corsair learning he's a grandfather, we just see Illyana telling him he probably doesn't know but he's a grandfather and someone I could not identify (Raza?) congratulating him. Hepzibah also makes some comment in poor English betraying her lack of knowledge of Earth customs. So possibly Corsair knew already, but chose not to correct Illyana. As for the comments of his crew, they are either playing along or think it customary to address congratulations even if it's not news.

The only solution to fit a Starjammers appearance in Alaska is to imagine a break in UX 201 after page 5.

After page 5, Scott and Madelyne visit Alaska and are joined by Corsair & Starjammers while Xavier is still being treated. They return to the ship but by the time Xavier is well, the stardrive is totaled and they cannot get back.

Then Scott & family return to the x-mansion where he's challenged for the leadership. On page 12 Storm informs Kitty she loaned the loft to Scott and Madelyne. We could assume from this they have just returned.

Madelyne wears warm clothes on pages 1-5 while the X-Men wear summer clothes from page 9 after the Starjammers sequence. Madelyne also wears different clothes on page 12.

Anyone free to disagree or point objections I missed.

[Jason Doty]

The only solution to fit a Starjammers appearance in Alaska is to imagine a break in UX 201 after page 5.

After page 5, Scott and Madelyne visit Alaska and are joined by Corsair & Starjammers while Xavier is still being treated. They return to the ship but by the time Xavier is well, the stardrive is totaled and they cannot get back.

Then Scott & family return to the x-mansion where he's challenged for the leadership. On page 12 Storm informs Kitty she loaned the loft to Scott and Madelyne. We could assume from this they have just returned.

Madelyne wears warm clothes on pages 1-5 while the X-Men wear summer clothes from page 9 after the Starjammers sequence. Madelyne also wears different clothes on page 12.

Nice solution. So this story occurs between UX 201 p.5 and 6.

So for Cyclops, Madelyne and baby Nathan

UX 201 (1 - 5)
XCAL 64 (2:5)-FB
X:EXTRNTD /2
UX 201 (6 - 22)

[Leoparis]

Thanks for the support. The XCAL 64-FB ("Madelyne wants to call our son Nathan Christopher Charles") that I did not know about is at odds with the dialogue in NM 50 where Illyana says the name has been kept secret. So I'm proposing that Cyclops announced the name when in Alaska to his family rather than in the X-Men mansion. (Since I'm unfamiliar with X-Men chronology past 1988, in particular all flashbacks and retcons, don't hesitate to say if that doesn't work.)

UX 201 (1 - 5) > X:EXTRNTD /2 > XCAL 64-FB ? > UX 201 (6 - 22) > XCAL 64-FB ? > UX 206 > XCAL 64-FB ? > C 7 (9 -10:1)-FB

After X:EXTRNTD /2 but an opportunity to say the name in the latter part of UX 201 should exist unless the parents still disagreed on the name (it's a very consensual name though).

After UX 201 (6 - 22) is better if not for Cyclops being in costume.

The postcard held by Rogue in UX 206 should give the name if the baby has been named at this stage unless Rogue failed to communicate it around.

Cyclops in costume after UX 206 and before XF 1 is odd.

Maybe the dialogue should be understood as "Madelyne wants to call our son Nathan Christopher Charles... but we're not yet settled on it and we'll let you know as soon as we make up our mind." And they never communicated the name was definitive leaving people in doubt about it up to NM 50.

[Jason Doty]

It is going to be the order I have above. The FB in Excalibur 64 is from Rachel's memory. She is off panel. She must have asked the name after her and Kitty were playing with him.

She is not present when when we have Cyclops and family returning, She went to the Grey's home. Also Cyclops is not in a good mood at any point during the second half of the issue.

Also, all of X:EXTRNTD /2 should be a FB as it is narrated by Cable or Kid Cable in the present. He would get a VO-BTS for the narration sometime around the time this issue came out.

[michel]

Cyclops is not in a good mood before X:EXTRNTD /2, the point of the issue is to show how it's his talk with his father that brings him back closer to Madelyne and Nathan. So I would put the happy Cyclops in XCAL 64-FB between X:EXTRNTD /2-FB and UX 201 (6 - 22).

[Jason Doty]

Cyclops is not in a good mood before X:EXTRNTD /2, the point of the issue is to show how it's his talk with his father that brings him back closer to Madelyne and Nathan. So I would put the happy Cyclops in XCAL 64-FB between X:EXTRNTD /2-FB and UX 201 (6 - 22).

UX 201 (1 - 5) X-Men return home, everybody excited over baby, deep thoughts for Cyclops and Madelyne, but no open hostility. Rachel in this part of story.

XCAL 64-FB A smiling Cyclops and Madelyne tell Rachel name.

X:EXTRNTD /2-FB in Alaska, placed here to account for Starjammers

UX 201 (6 - 8) Starjammers stuck on other side of gate unable to return home, because of ship trouble

UX 201 (9 - 20) Cyclops and Madelyne return, Rachel not there. Storm gives them room. Madelyne upset Cyclops wants to stay with X-Men, Storm beats Cyclops for leadership.

UX 201 (21 - 22) Rachel at Grey's house

Since Rachel is not at the mansion when they return, This is my suggested order.

[metaldragon]

Maybe the dialogue should be understood as "Madelyne wants to call our son Nathan Christopher Charles... but we're not yet settled on it and we'll let you know as soon as we make up our mind." And they never communicated the name was definitive leaving people in doubt about it up to NM 50.

This seems likely as Cyclops called his son Christopher throughout the X-Factor run up until Inferno when Madelyne informs Scott his name is Nathan.

[Jason Doty]

I'm still concerned about placing the Excalibur FB after Cyclops and Madelyne return from Alaska.

Rachel is not at the mansion when Cyclops and Madelyne return. Storm is the one who greets them and gives them her loft. Rachel has left for the Grey's house by then.

The Excalibur FB should be after Rachel and Kitty play with the baby, but before Cyclops and family leave for Alaska, and would make sense as if Rachel was curious about the name as she returns the baby to Madelyne and Cyclops.

UX 201 (1 - 5) X-Men return home, everybody excited over baby, deep thoughts for Cyclops and Madelyne, but no open hostility. Rachel in this part of story.

XCAL 64-FB A smiling Cyclops and Madelyne tell Rachel name.

X:EXTRNTD /2-FB in Alaska, placed here to account for Starjammers

[michel]

Cyclops shows no "open hostility" in UX 201 (1 - 5), but to me there's clearly a discomfort, he's not as enthusiastic as the other X-Men. The first page is symbolic : everybody watches the baby but him. And in page 2, he stands near the others, apart from them.
This scene is repeated at the beginning of X:EXTRNTD /2, and this time Alex, Lorna, Corsair and his grandfather notice it.

[Jason Doty]

The problem is that Rachel is not there when they return from where we had to create a split in the comic. She is seen at the Grey's house on the last 2 pages. Also, Madelyne seems to be wearing the same outfit from the beginning of the comic and not the end. I think the Excalibur FB was meant to be toward the beginning of the issue when originally created. I think both these issues are of higher evidence.

[michel]

During the duel, in the evening, Madelyne says "This time tomorrow we'll be on our way home". Rachel is at the Grey's house during the night. She can be back at the mansion in the morning, meet Scott, Madelyne and Nathan before they leave, and Madelyne could have change clothes for the flight.

Could someone else give us another opinion on this subject?

[Russ Chappell]

The problem is that Rachel is not there when they return

Please clarify. Do we know that Rachel isn't there, or do we just not see her?

[Leoparis]

During the duel, in the evening, Madelyne says "This time tomorrow we'll be on our way home". Rachel is at the Grey's house during the night. She can be back at the mansion in the morning, meet Scott, Madelyne and Nathan before they leave, and Madelyne could have change clothes for the flight.

Could someone else give us another opinion on this subject?

Since it's my proposal to break X 201 to insert X:EXTRNTD /2 which led to the argument I will weigh in.

I think the script and art support Michel's reading.

The second part of X 201 goes from a sunny afternoon to the night (including a "Much, much later" caption).

I do get what Jason is saying too.

The thing is Alan Davis didn't pay too much attention to X 201 and the following Claremont issues when he drew an elated Cyclops and had Madelyne tell the baby's name to the X-Men since they still didn't know it by NM 50. So I think there is an allowance to reinterpret Alan Davis' intention for this single panel so that it fits with Claremont's intention in X 201, NM 50 and X:EXTRNTD /2.

The insertion of a sequence where Cyclops lightens up and resolves some of his problems with Madelyne forces Michel's hand in putting the elated Cyclops after that resolution.

Madelyne's outfit in XCAL 64-FB has neither the color nor the texture of her warm outfit in X 201 (1-5).

The background in XCAL 64-FB seems to match the loft where they reside in the second part of X 201.

The physical presence of Rachel is such a moot point. As a telepath she does not have to be physically present to "witness" Madelyne at this point and what's more she could even read that image as a memory in someone's mind later. And if the concern is that she would be unduly prying, which is uncharacteristic of X-Men, I would then say that her training was as a mutant-hunting hound and that she enters the Greys home uninvited at the the end of X 201.

There are tons of other possibilities which don't require Rachel's presence (like this scenario explaining the problem with the name: the image is not Cyclops announcing the name to anyone but just rehearsing in front of a mirror and the image seen by Rachel is Madelyne's memory of the mirror image. After this point Scott and Madelyne get in an argument, "Why are you saying 'Madelyne wants'? Don't you want it too?" "Well, I thought Christopher should come first." Etc. And as a result they never get to announce anything thus leaving the Xavier mansion residents in mystery over the baby's name.)

To me, it cannot be successfully argued that XCAL 64-FB could only take place in the first part of X 201.

[Jason Doty]

You all are correct I can make a leap of faith that, maybe she caught them as she was heading out the door or whatever, but the listing for the characters involved will be hard to follow if they arent't put into context with other listings when we split issues. The splits should be consistent for all the characters in a scene. So, just as an example.

Phoenix/Rachel Summers
UX 201 (1-5)
X-CAL 64-FB
UX 201 (9-19)-BTS
UX 201 (20-21)

Cyclops/Scott Summers
UX 201 (1-5)
X:EXTRNTD /2-FB
X-CAL 64-FB
UX 201 (9-19)
UX 206-BTS

Corsair/Christopher Summers
UX 200
X:EXTRNTD /2-FB
UX 201 (6-8)
UX 203

I'm only suggesting this for issues that need to be split. Making it very clear where an event took place in a book that required a splinting and covering all the bases for future argument about placement. Very clean.