Jason Doty wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
This seems like a clever solution, with keeping in tact both stories without an explanation. We can just assume that Erynys got darker over time.
I like it, but it still has the problem of someone who's apparently Elektra operating in NYC at a time when everyone believes she's dead...!
This week's X-books involve a whole lot of continuity inserts--I'm going to have to wait for the dust of X Lives/X Deaths to settle a little, I think--but SABRETOOTH 2 is particularly interesting. In the current-day section, Apocalypse is back on Krakoa (and talking about the "High Lords," i.e. the Externals), which would seem to connect to the forthcoming "Judgement Day" stuff; Oya's presence means that we're after NEW MUTANTS 18 and therefore prrrrobably after INFERNO (unless for some reason it's before X of Swords, which seems unlikely); we get confirmation that nobody is in the pit other than Sabretooth (since Nature Girl isn't actually there); and, hilariously, (12:1 - 12:2) -FB overlaps and immediately follows the end of 1990's X-FACTOR #53, of all things.
And X-MEN LEGENDS 12 takes place shortly before EXCALIBUR: SPECIAL EDITION!
I saw a bunch of people in the pit: the five people judged plus Sabretooth. I was under the impression that all their adventures happen in their mind.
For Elektra, whatever we try to come up with that involves a black costumed Spider-Man--real Elektra, Erinye, Typhoid Mary--it's going to clash with a supposedly dead Elektra. BUT in DD 190 the Hand tries to steal the corpse of Elektra to resurrect her. Given their ability to resurrect their warriors, an Elektra active in the mid-80s as an assassin would hardly be so surprising. "Oh yeah, it's the Hand, they resurrected her. They do that all the time."
(Note also she does not leave any witness alive in that story so it matters little whether people think she's dead if there's nobody left to be surprised by her presence.)
The most unlikely option is that it's the real Elektra since she's supposed to be sinless and living with the Chaste.
I've not done a close reading of Fall From Grace to check if Erinye's origin can actually take place several years earlier in Marvel's continuity. On one hand it raises the question of why would they lend their fake Elektra to Kingpin? On the other hand, if the Hand lent a fake Elektra to Kingpin people would be convinced that's the real Elektra. It leaves open the matter of choosing a time from 1984 to 1988 to place the story.
I slightly prefer my Typhoid Mary solution. It slightly reinterprets Duggan's story. Rather than the real Elektra--since that cannot be her--seeking help from Emma, that's actually a plot from the Kingpin to involve Emma in the suspicious disappearance of a child. It is established that Typhoid Mary works for Kingpin and that he wants her to mess with Daredevil. Let's say he first planned of Mary impersonating Elektra and then thought that wouldn't work as DD would see through it and then shifted to "Have him fall in love with you as you are and then break his heart". Another advantage is that it pinpoints Spider-Man's placement: in May 1988.
I suggested the problem and my solution to Duggan on Twitter, he just made a joke. Probably I should reach the editor.
Of course we can just dismiss the black costume but on what basis?
Leoparis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:20 pm
I saw a bunch of people in the pit: the five people judged plus Sabretooth. I was under the impression that all their adventures happen in their mind.
Ah, sorry, bad phrasing on my part: I meant "confirmation that nobody else besides Sabretooth has been in the pit before the five new arrivals."
My potential issue with the Typhoid solution is that Elektra is one of the central characters of Daredevil/Devil's Reign, and the point of this story seems to be establishing that she and Emma have some shared history! (And my argument for my "Emma is misremembering some visual details" solution is that it allows everyone in the story to be who they appear to be, and also has a bit of precedent.) But maybe something in #3 will offer additional useful evidence...
I just read the issue and it's plainly Elektra. Like Clive just said, it's setting up a shared history between Emma and Elektra; that just doesn't work if it's Typhoid Mary in disguise or anyone else for that matter. It's Elektra. Also, it's obviously before Elektra's death; otherwise Emma would be all like "Aren't you dead? Why aren't you dead?" for at least four or five pages.
Having said that, Emma was pretty dismissive of Spider-Man, and not really paying that much attention to him (until she read his mind). He was a nearby useful idiot, as far as she was concerned.
I'm firmly in the "Emma misremembered Spider-Man's costume" corner. I usually dislike using "art error" as an explanation but I don't see any other option in this instance. Someone being alive when they're supposed to be dead is more important than someone's clothes, in my mind.
SABRETOOTH 2 is particularly interesting. In the current-day section, Apocalypse is back on Krakoa (and talking about the "High Lords," i.e. the Externals), which would seem to connect to the forthcoming "Judgement Day" stuff; Oya's presence means that we're after NEW MUTANTS 18 and therefore prrrrobably after INFERNO (unless for some reason it's before X of Swords, which seems unlikely); we get confirmation that nobody is in the pit other than Sabretooth (since Nature Girl isn't actually there)
The present day is before X of Swords, Sabretooth is joined by Nekra, Melter, Madison Jeffries, Oya and Third Eye. Nature Girl wasn't sent in the pit during this time frame, and actually is sent but pardoned by Krakoa who releases her Curse and the dog.
Jason Doty wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:31 pm
The present day is before X of Swords, Sabretooth is joined by Nekra, Melter, Madison Jeffries, Oya and Third Eye. Nature Girl wasn't sent in the pit during this time frame, and actually is sent but pardoned by Krakoa who releases her Curse and the dog.
Also, there's no Nanny or Orphan Maker around (or Toad, for that matter), so yeah, either this is before X of Swords or there's something extra-odd going on.
Clive_Reston wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:27 am
DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 2 has a loooong flashback (pp. 4-16) that takes place at a time when Elektra is the Kingpin's assassin and... Spider-Man is in his black suit. OW OW OW OW OW. Which is to say: for it to work, sometime between DD 190 and DD 322, Elektra has to have left the Chaste, come back to NYC, and worked as an assassin for Fisk again, pretty extensively, without anyone but Fisk or Emma Frost knowing about it (to be fair, it's presented as a no-surviving-witnesses kind of deal, but still).
I think I figured what happened in the writer's mind. Fall from Grace (1992) refers to Elektra: Assassin (1985-86). Duggan (born 1973) when reading those stories as a child might have believed Elektra: Assassin took place between DD 190 and 323, at the same time that Spidey had a black costume (1984-88). Or, less probably, he first read the Elektra stories in Elektra Saga 1-4 (Feb-May 1984) and thought this mini-series contemporary with 1984 issues (ASM 252, May 1984 is the first appearance of the black costume) rather than a reprint.
Not that it helps us in any way but it points to when Duggan thought it was taking place. Invisible Woman is also depicted in her negative costume (est. 1983).
X LIVES/X DEATHS OF WOLVERINE is over now, and its present-day sections take place very shortly after INFERNO 4 (except for X DEATHS 1 (1-7), which are between pages 36 and 37 of INFERNO 4). And the present-day parts of the 10-episode LIFE OF WOLVERINE Infinity Comic seem to be, more or less, an expansion of pages 19 and 20 of X LIVES #1.
As for the flashbacks/timeline alterations in X LIVES? [very loud coughing fit drowns out anything I might be saying]
DEVIL'S REIGN: X-MEN 1-3 are a fairly tight little unit that takes place during the Scott-as-Captain-Krakoa period. The super-difficult flashback in #2 now has its own thread, courtesy of Leoparis!
IMMORTAL X-MEN #1 is a "you can pretty much tell what's before this one and what's after it" issue. (And is very good.) It also points to a possible solution to a little X-continuity conundrum that's been nagging at me for a bit: when, specifically, was Destiny backed up before her death?
So the problem there is that Charles Xavier leaves Earth ca. UX 201 and doesn't get back until ca. UX 277. Which means he's not around to run Cerebro backups of mutants' minds during that time--and, indeed, it's unclear if Forge had built the version of Cerebro that can do that before Xavier left Earth. (Jonathan Hickman has noted that the costumes in the relevant scene of Powers of X are an art error, I believe.) Legion kills Destiny ca. UX 255. Which would imply that either a) the last extant backup of Destiny was before UX 201, or b) she was never backed up (which you'd think Mystique would know, given Xavier's promises to her about resurrecting Destiny).
Following the resolution of The Trial of Magneto, it's no longer an impediment to resurrection if a particular mutant died before backups started (hence Thunderbird/John Proudstar). BUT: Destiny appears to have been resurrected the morning after the Hellfire Gala, with a copy of Cerebro stolen from Magneto the day of the Gala, i.e. before Trial of Magneto.
Enter IMMORTAL X-MEN, in which Selene mentions that she brought back all of the Genoshan dead (as zombies). That happened in "Necrosha"... during which Destiny was also briefly resurrected. So perhaps that callback is a nudge toward the idea that Xavier and Cerebro backed her up then?
(There is also a dangling plot thread from HoX/PoX that's potentially relevant here: Xavier has replaced his own mind with an earlier backup twice--but we don't know anything else about those circumstances!)
Anyway. The other X-book this week is X-MEN UNLIMITED: LATITUDE #1, the print version of X-Men Unlimited Infinity Comics #1-4, which can really go any time when the Peak is operational. (Its sequel, the online-only-for-the-moment X-Men Unlimited Infinity Comics #22-25, is "a few weeks" later.) I'm gonna tentatively shrug and put it sometime before S.W.O.R.D. 9-11.
X-MEN RED vol. 2 #1 opens with a four-page flashback that encompasses and expands on the flashback in S.W.O.R.D. #8 (10:4 - 11:1) and places it just before the Hellfire Gala. Pg. 5 is a flashback to (most likely) a couple of days before Immortal X-Men #1; pp. 6-30 are "three days later," shortly after Immortal X-Men #1. (Also, there's a line of dialogue that hints that a solution to the problem of Petra and Sway showing up in X5 8 and 10 may be forthcoming.)
X-FORCE #27 is some time after X Lives/Deaths of Wolverine (Forge, who was depowered there, has just gone through Crucible and been resurrected with his powers), but before Immortal X-Men #1 (Magneto is still on the Council). Beast with one eye--he lost the other one in X-Force #24, and that may be useful for placing other issues later on.
MARAUDERS vol. 2 #1 is sometime after the Annual.
X-FORCE ANNUAL #1 is also sometime after the Marauders Annual: Emma is no longer running Hellfire (so it can't be before Marauders vol. 1 #27), but there's a Marauders crew of some kind operating. Beast with one eye.
Midnighter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:40 am
In Reckoning War Alpha I think that's an art error and that dialogue should be attribuited to Sunfire. Also, in this issue Spider-Man is Peter Parker, and so it has to take place after the Beyond storyline (o, at least, after Black Cat and Captain Americe give back the costume to Peter) and after Devil's Reign.
Actually, in Reckoning War Alpha Spider-Man is Ben Reilly, that’s the Beyond costume he is wearing.
Only one real X-book this week: that's X6 10, which is really any time after the previous issue. It does have two notable flashbacks, though. X6 10 (17:3) -FB is yet another flashback to the election at the Hellfire Gala. And the first page expands on the resurrection of Laura from #19 of the previous series (to fix the problem of her now having a full adamantium skeleton). So:
This week's WOLVERINE #20 has me reconsidering my placement of issues 18-19 (and Marauders 26-27), since it's set shortly after X Lives/Deaths, and it appears that Delores Ramirez is still alive, well and active. The last time we saw her, in #18, she had been shot and didn't seem to be doing well, but hey, maybe she's got some kind of healing factor or something? Anyway. Developing.
This week we get SABRETOOTH #3, in which it's confirmed that time passes differently in the pit--there's a reference to everyone getting ready for the Gala, which means that Apocalypse's appearance in #2 IS pre-X of Swords after all. But the entire story is implied to be not-entirely-real, so I'm still not gonna venture a placement until it's done.
KNIGHTS OF X #1 pretty much picks up from the end of Excalibur; no reason not to place it in publication order for now.
Also, on reflection, Illyana's line about Psylocke in INFERNO #1 ("You should know--if it's not already obvious--that we're also drafting in Psylocke to replace Gorgon") has been tripping me up for a while, since Psylocke's already been acting as a Great Captain in Hellions etc. But in the context of that scene, you can read it as Illyana snarkily saying: look, we recently made a similar decision without consulting you and you didn't complain then, are you going to let us handle our business or what?
That reading simplifies matters: we no longer have to shoehorn Hellions #18 into the middle of Inferno #1, or split New Mutants #24 in half the way I suggested above. (It also has the advantage that Krakoa can have its trials back-to-back, and Hellions #18 can be the first one in a while--"we knew this day would come when we would be asked to sit in judgment once more.") So it would mean:
[Sometime between X of Swords and the Hellfire Gala, Psylocke is drafted in]
X-Men: The Trial of Magneto 1-4 and 5 (1): the two days after the Gala; Wanda accuses Toad
New Mutants 20-23: same two days as above; on the second day, the Five announce new rules for who can be resurrected
Hellions 16-17: a day or two after the Gala, Psylocke is already acting as a Great Captain when Emma confronts her; Emma tells Alex she's "asked the Council to reconsider" resurrecting Madelyne
...
X-Men v6 1: John Proudstar spoken about in the past tense
...
Hellions 18: judgement of the Hellions (first Krakoan trial in a while), Madelyne has been resurrected, Kwannon and Greycrow have a moment
[The judgment of Nature Girl and Curse in X-Men Green can be somewhere around here too, assuming it's the same when it sees print]
X-Men: The Trial of Magneto 5 (2-7): judgment of Toad
...
X-Men: The Trial of Magneto 5 (9-12): soon after, the Ritual of Three
X-Men: The Trial of Magneto 5 (16-18): the next morning, Thunderbird resurrected
New Mutants 24: same morning, the Proudstars together; Madelyne at the Green Lagoon
...
Inferno 1-4 > X Lives/X Deaths of Wolverine (some time later; it's been 3-4 weeks since the Gala)
...
Excalibur 25: "months" since X of Swords; Kwannon and Greycrow holding hands
MARAUDERS #2 picks up right after #1. Simple enough.
The first page of GIANT-SIZE X-MEN: THUNDERBIRD is a flashback to X-Men: The Trial of Magneto 5 (17). The rest looks like it's after X-Men Red #1 (John Proudstar gets a new costume).
