Sub-Mariner's first New York attack is depicted in Marvel Mystery Comics 2 & 3, Sub-Mariner Comics 32 (both by his creator Bill Everett), Sub-Mariner 38 and Saga of the Sub-Mariner 3 (the latter two by Roy Thomas).
The first three are quite different from each other.
The first two are told by an omniscient narrator. The latter two are Namor's memories.
Roy Thomas attempted a synthesis in Saga of the Sub-Mariner 3, with elements from each version but mostly sticking to the first. That will be the framework I will use. It respects the original telling and provides breaks and a temporal span where to place the other versions.
Here is a breakdown of the scenes in each:
Marvel Mystery Comics 2
Namor arrives from the lighthouse island by stolen plane and dives and swims to New York.
He is sucked through a pipe and bursts in a powerhouse
He trips on a live wire and attacks the workers
Dives through a window
Flies to Central Park and drops in water
A patrolman on the bank sounds the alarm and shoots at him
He capsizes a rowboat containing the policeman
Flies away to Fifth Avenue, drops into East River and enters a sewer
In sewers gets clothes from a tramp and emerges on Fifth Avenue
Enters a house, extinguishes a girl on fire, kidnaps her from hospital and brings her to Battery
Faces policemen who shoot at him, hurls a car at them, then dives in river with girl
One cop faces Namor and dies while the other rescues the girl
Marvel Mystery Comics 3
The police plan to use Betty Dean to catch Sub-Mariner. The script mentions "We've done everything to stop this madman" "We've blockaded both the Hudson and East River" "the entire force has failed"
Betty Dean jumps into water, cries for help and points a gun at Namor when he rescues her, he strikes the gun from her hand
Sub-Mariner Comics 32
Swims to New York from the lighthouse (3:1 - 3:3)
Arrives at a reservoir miles from the city, enters an intake gate and muddies the water (3:4 - 3:9)
Then attempts to wreck feeder lines and gets shot at
He overturns a police car and returns to the river to reach the city
In NY police HQ the chief says to Betty Dean Namor is headed downriver
She boards a patrolboat and they attempt unsuccessfully to run him down but Dean ends up in water
At the Battery Namor wrecks an underriver subway tube and floods the streets
Namor writes to the mayor, this gets printed and read by Capt. McKenzie
Namor bombs the Brooklyn Bridge and smashes a patrolboat
On harbor docks Capt. McKenzie and Betty Dean (in uniform) try to reason with him
Dean points a gun, which he strikes from her hand
He's captured in a net and thrown into a van but frees himself
Sub-Mariner 38
Arrives by air, flies over Statue of Liberty
Lands by an arch and adresses public
A policeman on motorbike arrives and gets subdued
Overturns a charter green bus
Breaks a water tower and floods the street
Leaves a warning to leave Atlantis alone on a billboard
Betty Dean is given the mission, etc
Saga of the Sub-Mariner 3
Arrives swimming
Sucked into tunnel bursts in a powerhouse
Walks on electrical grid, attacks workers
Shot at by policeman
Breaks through window
Chased on street by police car, sends it flying
Next few days, policy of intimidation and terror: fires, wrecking subway rails
Throwing charter green bus
Betty Dean given her mission, etc
This last version adds several days between Marvel Mystery Comics 2 and 3 where Sub-Mariner Comics 32 and Sub-Mariner 38 can take place. The dialogue in Sub-Mariner 38 that Namor discovers New York for the first time can be discounted as the result of shortened, reorganized memories where his earlier impressions get superimposed on a later event. Roy Thomas himself places his own story in SUB 38 a week after Namor's arrival and after at least four disasters caused by Namor.
In the MCP, the reservoir incident miles upstream from the city (SUBC 32/2) has been incorrectly merged with the powerhouse incident but they are distinct. Due to Namor's monologue, SUB 38 has also been merged with his arrival in the city; except we have the green charter bus--the part that should have been merged--twice!
Current listing with notes:
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
M/MC 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3) dives from plane and swims to NY
SUB 38 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB flying off from Atlantis, reaching NY by air
SAGASUB 3 (1 - 2)-FB in the water of NY harbor
M/MC 2/3 (1:4 - 1:5) reaches docks
SUBC 32/3 (3:4 - 3:9) sabotages an upriver reservoir
M/MC 2/3 (1:6 - 2) sucked by tub in city
SUBC 32/3 (4) more sabotage at upriver reservoir
M/MC 2/3 (3 - 4:2) wreaks havoc in NYC powerhouse
SAGASUB 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB shot at, dives through window
M/MC 2/3 (4:3) dives through window
SAGASUB 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB in street, overturns police car and flies off
SUB 38 (10 - 15:3)-FB wreaks havoc in city, overturns charter green bus and leaves a warning
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5) Central Park, Fifth Avenue, waterfront
SUBC 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3) smashes police cars after fleeing from upriver reservoir
M/MC 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7) smashing car
SUBC 32/3 (5:4) dives upriver
M/MC 2/3 (12) leaps from dock
SUBC 32/3 (5:5 - 12) evades Dean's patrol boat, floods streets, bombs Brooklyn Bridge, meets McKenzie and Betty Dean, captured, escapes
SAGASUB 3 (10:4 - 11:3)-FB wrecking subway rails, overturns charter green bus
M/MC 3/3 (1 - 3:7) Dean briefed on specific mission
SAGASUB 3 (10:3)-FB is missing, it's the "third disaster". Followed by wrecking subway rails. The powerhouse is the first.
The reservoir is probably the second. And that would make flooding the underwater subway the fifth.
Suggested corrections:
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
M/MC 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
**SUB 38 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB DELETE
SAGASUB 3 (1 - 2)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (1:4 - 1:5)
**SUBC 32/3 (3:4 - 3:9) MOVE FROM HERE
M/MC 2/3 (1:6 - 2)
**SUBC 32/3 (4) MOVE FROM HERE
M/MC 2/3 (3 - 4:2)
**SAGASUB 3 (7:1 - 7:3)-FB (DELETE 7:4)
M/MC 2/3 (4:3)
SAGASUB 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB
**SUB 38 (10 - 15:3)-FB MOVE FROM HERE
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
**SUBC 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3) MOVE FROM HERE
M/MC 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
**SUBC 32/3 (5:4) MOVE FROM HERE
M/MC 2/3 (12)
**SUBC 32/3 (3:4 - 6:1) MOVE HERE
SAGASUB 3 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB ADD
**SUB 38 (9:5 - 15:3)-FB MODIFY AND MOVE HERE
**SUBC 32/3 (6:2 - 12)
**SAGASUB 3 (10:4 - 11:3)-FB DELETE
M/MC 3/3 (1 - 3:7)
Corrected listing:
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
M/MC 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
SAGASUB 3 (1 - 2)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (1:4 - 4:2) powerhouse (1st disaster)
SAGASUB 3 (7:1 - 7:3)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (4:3)
SAGASUB 3 (7:5 - 10:2) roaming in NY
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 12) Central Park, Fifth Avenue, waterfront
SUBC 32/3 (3:4 - 6:1) reservoir (2nd disaster)
SAGASUB 3 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB "third disaster this week" and 4th disaster
SUB 38 (9:5 - 15:3)-FB attempts to speak to population and leaves message on billboard
SUBC 32/3 (6:2 - 12) floods underwater subway & streets, bombs Brooklyn Bridge, writes mayor, meets McKenzie and Betty Dean, captured, escapes
M/MC 3/3 (1 - 3:7) Dean briefed on specific mission
PRENTISS, LT. BETTY DEAN
SUBC 32/3
{M/MC 3/3 (1 - 2:1)} Dean not here, mentioned for general chronology DON'T ADD
*SAGASUB 3 (10:3)-FB DELETE Dean not here --> SAGASUB 3 (11:3)-FB "I wanted policewoman Dean up here" "Got here fast as I could, Sir" MOVE HERE
*SUB 38 (15:7)-FB "Officer Dean, I've a dangerous job for you. You've heard of the monster known as the Sub-Mariner?" DELETE (=M/MC 3/3 (2:2 - 2:3)
*SAGASUB 3 (10:4 - 11:3)-FB DELETE, (11:3) moved earlier
*SAGASUB 3 (11:4)-FB "You're young Betty" "You've heard of the monster known as the Sub-Mariner?" "Who hasn't? The Coast Guard..." etc. ADD HERE
*{M/MC 3/3 (1 - 3:7)} "Officer Dean, I've a new and dangerous assignment for you." "You're familiar with the depredations of the monster known as the Sub-Mariner" --> (2:2 - 3:7)
corrected listing:
PRENTISS, LT. BETTY DEAN
SUBC 32/3 Coast Guard
SAGASUB 3 (11:3 - 11:4)-FB start of meeting
{M/MC 3/3 (2:2 - 3:7)} Captain gives plan
PS: Michel might want to fine-tune it to dialogue details. I've mostly noticed that Roy Thomas shortens the dialogue: "I've a new and dangerous assignment for you" becomes "I've a dangerous job for you"; "You're familiar with the depredations of the monster known as the Sub-Mariner" becomes "You've heard of the monster known as the Sub-Mariner?"
This is a usual practice in retellings and does not infer added dialogue.
Revised Nov 17 to add the dropped line M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 12) to the corrected listing as pointed to me by robfj.
Revised Nov 21 to delete SAGASUB (7:4) which is the same as M/MC 2/3 (4:3) as pointed to me by robfj.
Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb
Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
Last edited by Leoparis on Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
I've been delving into the history of changes to this part of Sub-Mariner's career, in the Forum and the Archives before it.
Dhall made the 1st important contribution in his 24/8/2007 archived Issue Analysis thread Namor: The Early Years. He included everything from his conception to GSINV#1. Judging by his deletions and amendments the previous chronology for Namor up to that point only consisted of:-
FF:SE-FB
N 20-FB
TTA 96-FB
ORDER 6-FB
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY
MARVEL COMICS 1
SAGASM 2-FB
MARVEL COMICS 1
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2
SAGASM 3-FB
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17
HUMAN TORCH 5
N 20-FB
CA 423
INV 4-FB
INV 29-FB
GSINV 1
Dhall didn't make changes beyond M/MC#7, and for #4-7 he just corrected the entries by adding /3.
But as well as adding /3 to M/C#1 and M/MC#2-3 he broke them and the SAGASM#2-3 FBs down into sections and interpolated them with things from the boyhood tales in SUB-MARINER COMICS#35/2-42/2 as well as the alternate origin tales in SUBC#32 and the Marvel Age SUB#38.
He occasionally provided panel ranges but more usually described the contents instead.
In our thread Leoparis is only concerned with the equivalent of M/MC#2/3 capped by the opening of M/MC#2/3 where Betty Dean is brought in. Roy Thomas allowed the adventure with Dorma from the end of M/C#1/3 to happen between SAGASUB#2 and #3 so he doesn't have to deal with variations in that part. He just begins with Namor saying that he'd sent Dorma home after the incident. But I need to include the end of the Dorma stuff from Dhall's suggestion to make clear what he's doing. On that basis the relevant part is:-
** MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (Namor fights guards, he and Dorma destroy the lighthouse beacon, then steal a plane. Namor punches the pilot, then puts Dorma in the cockpit, and tells her to wreck it. He dives off.
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (They meet up on the island, then go into the sea, and observe a ship that gets wrecked due to the lack of the beacon. Then they journey to New York City harbor.) (Then Namor goes on a rampage against New York City.)
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 PANELS 1-3
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 PANELS 5-6, PG. 10, PG. 11 PNLS 1,2
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3
**MARVELS 1-FB (Namor looks back at cops from water)
**SAGASM 3-FB PG. 11 PNL 3-4
**SUB-M 38-FB (Namor flies over NYC, throws a bus, gets some paint, and paints his ultimatum for the surface dwellers to leave Atlantis alone on a billboard, and puts it up over Times Square.)
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3
Note that in the Archive days SAGASUB was SAGASM, SUB was SUB-M and MARVEL (MYSTERY) COMICS and SUB-MARINER COMICS were spelled out in full. Note also that the SAGASM panel ranges have the wrong page numbers, which will get sorted out later. And other things have no panel ranges, and only some of them have descriptions.
I've annotated the above with extra info in []s:-
** MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (Namor fights guards, he and Dorma destroy the lighthouse beacon, then steal a plane. Namor punches the pilot, then puts Dorma in the cockpit, and tells her to wreck it. He dives off. [p10:4?-12]
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (They meet up on the island, then go into the sea, and observe a ship that gets wrecked due to the lack of the beacon. Then they journey to New York City harbor.) [p2:5-3:3 also sends Dorma home] (Then Namor goes on a rampage against New York City.) [????]
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 [p1-4:2 Namor dives from Dorma's plane, swims to NY, gets sucked into tube, breaks out into power station, wrecks it, also in SAGASM 3-FB p1-6 except it just mentions that he sent Dorma home (with or without a plane)]
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 [actually 7] PANELS 1-3 [guard fires at Namor]
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 [p4:3 Namor dives through a window, also SAGASM 3-FB p7:4 but MMC continues p4:4-11:2 with him evading police in Central Park Lake, barges into a house where a girl accidentally sets her clothes on fire, he douses the flames with water from his body, then follows an ambulance to the hospital and kidnaps her bandaged unconscious body from there]
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 [7] PANELS 5-6, PG. 10 [8&9?], PG. 11 [10] PNLS 1,2 [Namor chased by police car and attacks them, including throwing police car at them, then flies off, also in MMC 2/3 11:3-11:7 and SUBC 32/2 p5:1-5:3]
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 [p12 Namor takes burned girl into the water but cops rescue her]
**MARVELS 1-FB (Namor looks back at cops from water)
**SAGASM 3-FB PG. 11 [10] PNL 3-4 [Namor causes fires and tears up subway rails]
**SUB-M 38-FB (Namor flies over NYC, throws a [Green Line] bus, gets some paint, and paints his ultimatum for the surface dwellers to leave Atlantis alone on a billboard, and puts it up over Times Square.) [p10-15:3, Green Line bus also in SAGASM 3-FB p11:1-11:2]
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 [p1-2 Officer Betty Dean picked to deal with Namor because she's pretty and a good swimmer, also in SUB-M 38-FB p15:5 and SAGASM 3-FB p11:3-5, also in SUBC 32/2 but that would have to be earlier]
The relationship between SAGASM#3 and M/MC#2/3 I straightforward. SAGASM faithfully replicates some of M/MC with omissions and additions, and Dhall chooses to use the original M/MC version of the duplications.
SAGASM doesn't show Namor leaving Dorma's plane but it does cover the powerhouse episode, adding a new bit about a guard firing at him before the diving out of a window bit.
Then it ignores the Central Park lake episode and all the burning girl stuff except for the police chasing him and him throwing a police car.
Then it adds the fires and subway tracks single panels followed by the Green Line bus bit from SUB-M#38.
And then we're into M/MC#3/3 and Betty Dean.
Dhall adds an innocuous bit from MARVELS#1.
He also inserts the relevant chunk from SUB-M#38 replacing the Green Line bus p11:1-11:2 of SAGASM. Ie he pre-agrees with Leoparis that Roy Thomas meant for the Green Line bus incident to be the 1 from his SUB-M#38, and his comments say that he includes the rest of that SUB-M#38 flashback there as well.
The SUBC#32 entry isn't quite so clear. After some Dorma stuff relevant to M/C#1/3 Dhall specifically mentions the attack on the power station. But the following "Then Namor goes on a rampage against New York City" is ambiguous. That rampage is in 2 parts:- P3:4-6:1 he wrecks water reservoir. p6:2-12 Betty Dean brought in, Betty in harbour patrol boat, Namor overturns it dunking her in the water, he wrecks a subway tube under construction under the river flooding the city, writes a threatening note to the Mayor which comes to the attention of Commander McKenzie, Namor blows up Brooklyn Bridge, wrecks a Transatlantic cable, McKenzie and Betty attract his attention, Betty pulls a gun which Namor knocks out of her hand, police capture him in a net but he escapes.
Dhall noticeably doesn't mention Betty in his comment. But then he doesn't mention the Betty events in SUBC#32/2 later in the Betty section from M/MC#3/3 (beyond the scope of Leoparis' focus). That leaves us with 2 options:- 1) He meant it to include the Betty stuff along with the reservoir bit, but that means Betty met Namor well before she's officially approached about him in M/MC#3/3. 2) It only includes the reservoir bit, and Dhall believed that the Betty stuff was a mistaken version of M/MC#3/3 not worth mentioning.
I might point out here that the last option isn't far-fetched. SUBC#32/2 does seem like Bill Everett hadn't got access to his original story and made a new version up containing bits that he *did* recall. It includes many echoes of his original version but not necessarily in the right order:-
Dorma is initially with Namor.
He enters a tube.
He wrecks somewhere.
He overturns a police car.
He returns to the river.
Betty is put on the case.
He overturns a boat.
Betty is in the water with him.
Betty pulls a gun which he strikes from her hand.
These echoes in the wrong order of course make it tempting but difficult to reconcile it with the original.
No more changes will be made to this area until the early years of the non-Archive Forum. But I'll look at them in a following post.
Dhall made the 1st important contribution in his 24/8/2007 archived Issue Analysis thread Namor: The Early Years. He included everything from his conception to GSINV#1. Judging by his deletions and amendments the previous chronology for Namor up to that point only consisted of:-
FF:SE-FB
N 20-FB
TTA 96-FB
ORDER 6-FB
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY
MARVEL COMICS 1
SAGASM 2-FB
MARVEL COMICS 1
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2
SAGASM 3-FB
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17
HUMAN TORCH 5
N 20-FB
CA 423
INV 4-FB
INV 29-FB
GSINV 1
Dhall didn't make changes beyond M/MC#7, and for #4-7 he just corrected the entries by adding /3.
But as well as adding /3 to M/C#1 and M/MC#2-3 he broke them and the SAGASM#2-3 FBs down into sections and interpolated them with things from the boyhood tales in SUB-MARINER COMICS#35/2-42/2 as well as the alternate origin tales in SUBC#32 and the Marvel Age SUB#38.
He occasionally provided panel ranges but more usually described the contents instead.
In our thread Leoparis is only concerned with the equivalent of M/MC#2/3 capped by the opening of M/MC#2/3 where Betty Dean is brought in. Roy Thomas allowed the adventure with Dorma from the end of M/C#1/3 to happen between SAGASUB#2 and #3 so he doesn't have to deal with variations in that part. He just begins with Namor saying that he'd sent Dorma home after the incident. But I need to include the end of the Dorma stuff from Dhall's suggestion to make clear what he's doing. On that basis the relevant part is:-
** MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (Namor fights guards, he and Dorma destroy the lighthouse beacon, then steal a plane. Namor punches the pilot, then puts Dorma in the cockpit, and tells her to wreck it. He dives off.
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (They meet up on the island, then go into the sea, and observe a ship that gets wrecked due to the lack of the beacon. Then they journey to New York City harbor.) (Then Namor goes on a rampage against New York City.)
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 PANELS 1-3
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 PANELS 5-6, PG. 10, PG. 11 PNLS 1,2
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3
**MARVELS 1-FB (Namor looks back at cops from water)
**SAGASM 3-FB PG. 11 PNL 3-4
**SUB-M 38-FB (Namor flies over NYC, throws a bus, gets some paint, and paints his ultimatum for the surface dwellers to leave Atlantis alone on a billboard, and puts it up over Times Square.)
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3
Note that in the Archive days SAGASUB was SAGASM, SUB was SUB-M and MARVEL (MYSTERY) COMICS and SUB-MARINER COMICS were spelled out in full. Note also that the SAGASM panel ranges have the wrong page numbers, which will get sorted out later. And other things have no panel ranges, and only some of them have descriptions.
I've annotated the above with extra info in []s:-
** MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (Namor fights guards, he and Dorma destroy the lighthouse beacon, then steal a plane. Namor punches the pilot, then puts Dorma in the cockpit, and tells her to wreck it. He dives off. [p10:4?-12]
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (They meet up on the island, then go into the sea, and observe a ship that gets wrecked due to the lack of the beacon. Then they journey to New York City harbor.) [p2:5-3:3 also sends Dorma home] (Then Namor goes on a rampage against New York City.) [????]
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 [p1-4:2 Namor dives from Dorma's plane, swims to NY, gets sucked into tube, breaks out into power station, wrecks it, also in SAGASM 3-FB p1-6 except it just mentions that he sent Dorma home (with or without a plane)]
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 [actually 7] PANELS 1-3 [guard fires at Namor]
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 [p4:3 Namor dives through a window, also SAGASM 3-FB p7:4 but MMC continues p4:4-11:2 with him evading police in Central Park Lake, barges into a house where a girl accidentally sets her clothes on fire, he douses the flames with water from his body, then follows an ambulance to the hospital and kidnaps her bandaged unconscious body from there]
*SAGASM 3-FB PG. 9 [7] PANELS 5-6, PG. 10 [8&9?], PG. 11 [10] PNLS 1,2 [Namor chased by police car and attacks them, including throwing police car at them, then flies off, also in MMC 2/3 11:3-11:7 and SUBC 32/2 p5:1-5:3]
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/3 [p12 Namor takes burned girl into the water but cops rescue her]
**MARVELS 1-FB (Namor looks back at cops from water)
**SAGASM 3-FB PG. 11 [10] PNL 3-4 [Namor causes fires and tears up subway rails]
**SUB-M 38-FB (Namor flies over NYC, throws a [Green Line] bus, gets some paint, and paints his ultimatum for the surface dwellers to leave Atlantis alone on a billboard, and puts it up over Times Square.) [p10-15:3, Green Line bus also in SAGASM 3-FB p11:1-11:2]
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 [p1-2 Officer Betty Dean picked to deal with Namor because she's pretty and a good swimmer, also in SUB-M 38-FB p15:5 and SAGASM 3-FB p11:3-5, also in SUBC 32/2 but that would have to be earlier]
The relationship between SAGASM#3 and M/MC#2/3 I straightforward. SAGASM faithfully replicates some of M/MC with omissions and additions, and Dhall chooses to use the original M/MC version of the duplications.
SAGASM doesn't show Namor leaving Dorma's plane but it does cover the powerhouse episode, adding a new bit about a guard firing at him before the diving out of a window bit.
Then it ignores the Central Park lake episode and all the burning girl stuff except for the police chasing him and him throwing a police car.
Then it adds the fires and subway tracks single panels followed by the Green Line bus bit from SUB-M#38.
And then we're into M/MC#3/3 and Betty Dean.
Dhall adds an innocuous bit from MARVELS#1.
He also inserts the relevant chunk from SUB-M#38 replacing the Green Line bus p11:1-11:2 of SAGASM. Ie he pre-agrees with Leoparis that Roy Thomas meant for the Green Line bus incident to be the 1 from his SUB-M#38, and his comments say that he includes the rest of that SUB-M#38 flashback there as well.
The SUBC#32 entry isn't quite so clear. After some Dorma stuff relevant to M/C#1/3 Dhall specifically mentions the attack on the power station. But the following "Then Namor goes on a rampage against New York City" is ambiguous. That rampage is in 2 parts:- P3:4-6:1 he wrecks water reservoir. p6:2-12 Betty Dean brought in, Betty in harbour patrol boat, Namor overturns it dunking her in the water, he wrecks a subway tube under construction under the river flooding the city, writes a threatening note to the Mayor which comes to the attention of Commander McKenzie, Namor blows up Brooklyn Bridge, wrecks a Transatlantic cable, McKenzie and Betty attract his attention, Betty pulls a gun which Namor knocks out of her hand, police capture him in a net but he escapes.
Dhall noticeably doesn't mention Betty in his comment. But then he doesn't mention the Betty events in SUBC#32/2 later in the Betty section from M/MC#3/3 (beyond the scope of Leoparis' focus). That leaves us with 2 options:- 1) He meant it to include the Betty stuff along with the reservoir bit, but that means Betty met Namor well before she's officially approached about him in M/MC#3/3. 2) It only includes the reservoir bit, and Dhall believed that the Betty stuff was a mistaken version of M/MC#3/3 not worth mentioning.
I might point out here that the last option isn't far-fetched. SUBC#32/2 does seem like Bill Everett hadn't got access to his original story and made a new version up containing bits that he *did* recall. It includes many echoes of his original version but not necessarily in the right order:-
Dorma is initially with Namor.
He enters a tube.
He wrecks somewhere.
He overturns a police car.
He returns to the river.
Betty is put on the case.
He overturns a boat.
Betty is in the water with him.
Betty pulls a gun which he strikes from her hand.
These echoes in the wrong order of course make it tempting but difficult to reconcile it with the original.
No more changes will be made to this area until the early years of the non-Archive Forum. But I'll look at them in a following post.
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
There's something I forgot about which sheds some light on Dhall's intentions for SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2. His entry for Betty Dean starts
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (Officer Betty Dean encounters Namor in New York City)
**SAGASM 3-FB
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3
**SAGASM 3-FB
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3
**SAGASM 3-FB (Betty shouts at Namor to come back, when he leaves her on the buoy)
So he *has* Betty in SUBC#32 and moreover has her there before any of her SAGASM/MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS apps. This removes my ambiguity about the SUBC#32 entry in his Sub-Mariner chronology. He clearly intended that the SUBC#32 encounters with Betty were real and occurred before her others. Pre-agreeing with Leoparis' suggestion but differing in *exactly* when they happened.
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (Officer Betty Dean encounters Namor in New York City)
**SAGASM 3-FB
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3
**SAGASM 3-FB
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/3
**SAGASM 3-FB (Betty shouts at Namor to come back, when he leaves her on the buoy)
So he *has* Betty in SUBC#32 and moreover has her there before any of her SAGASM/MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS apps. This removes my ambiguity about the SUBC#32 entry in his Sub-Mariner chronology. He clearly intended that the SUBC#32 encounters with Betty were real and occurred before her others. Pre-agreeing with Leoparis' suggestion but differing in *exactly* when they happened.
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
In the live Forum Col_Fury amended Dhall's chronology in 2 posts 12/6/2014 SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 and 6/10/2014 SUB-M 38-FB.
In the 1st the relevant part of Namor's chronology is:-
SUB-M 38-FB
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (delete)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
M/COMICS 1/3 (9:1 - 9:2)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:4)
SAGASM 2 (22)-FB
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (2 - 3:3)
*M/COMICS 1/3 (9:3 - 12)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
SAGASM 3 (1 - 2)-FB
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:4 - 1:5)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (3:4 - 3:9)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:6 - 2)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (4)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (3 - 4:2)
SAGASM 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:3)
SAGASM 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:4)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (12)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:5 - 12)
SAGASM 3 (10:3 - 11:3)-FB
Note that SAGASUB is still SAGASM and the modern SUB is still SUB-M. SUB-MARINER COMICS is still written in full but MARVEL (MYSTERY) COMICS has been shortened to M/COMICS and M/MYSTERY.
Col_Fury pointed out that SUB-MARINER COMICS#32/2 should really be 32/3 because there's a non-Subby text detective story between the 1st and 2nd comics. Either that or the 1-page Are You A Detective strip.
He also completed the panel numbering of M/MYSTERY#2/3 and SAGASM#3. And most significantly spread SUB-MARINER COMICS#32/3 throughout the range rather than having it only in 1 place as Dhall did.
I've added comments to illuminate how SUBC#32/3, M/MC#2/3 and SAGASM#3 now fit together.
SUB-M 38-FB
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
M/COMICS 1/3 (9:1 - 9:2)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:4) Subby & Dorma leave for NY.
SAGASM 2 (22)-FB
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (2 - 3:3) They wreck a lighthouse which causes a ship to crash. He sends Dorma home when they see NY.
*M/COMICS 1/3 (9:3 - 12)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3) Namor dives from [Dorma's] plane and swims to New York.
SAGASM 3 (1 - 2)-FB He enters NY harbour after sending Dorma home.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:4 - 1:5) He swims in the harbour.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (3:4 - 3:9) He enters a tube to an upstate reservoir and muddies the water.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:6 - 2) He's sucked into a tube and breaks out into a powerhouse.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (4) He wrecks the feeder lines to the city. A cop(?) shoots at him. He hits him and swims off.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (3 - 4:2) He's shocked by a live wire and retaliates.
SAGASM 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB A cop(?) shoots at him and he dives out of a window.
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:3) He dives out of a window.
SAGASM 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB He's chased by a cop car and throws it with the cops inside then flies off.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5) He overturns a rowboat & policeman in Central Park lake. He takes clothes from a tramp in a sewer. He enters a 5th Avenue where a woman's dress catches fire which he douses with water from his body. He follows the ambulance which takes her to hospital and abducts her unconscious. A police car and motorcycle chase him and the police shoot at him.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3) He throws a chasing police car.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7) He throws their police car at them.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:4) He re-enters the river.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (12) He takes the woman into the river followed by 2 cops. He kills 1 while the other rescues the woman. He swims off.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:5 - 12) Betty Dean is brought in. The patrol boat incident. Flooding the subway and the city. Message to the Mayor. Blows up Brooklyn Bridge. McKenzie & Dean attract his attention. Betty pulls a gun but he slaps it away. Caught in a net but escapes back to the river.
SAGASM 3 (10:3 - 11:3)-FB He starts some fires. He tears up some subway tracks. Betty Dean arrives at the police chief(?)'s office.
Col_Fury has corrected Dhall's page numbers for SAGASM p7-10 (instead of 9-11).
But he joins together 10:3-10:4 (fires & subway tracks) with 11:1-11:2 (the Green Line bus bit from SUB-M#38-FB) and eliminates the ref to SUB-M#38 here. He also joins SAGASM p11:3 to the 1st 2, possibly because this shows Betty Dean entering the police chief's office before the scenes from this and other issues where she is given her mission. (And MARVELS 1-FB has disappeared, never to reappear.)
SUB-M#38-FB is left with the lone entry at the beginning of this section, but this only represents Thakorr sending Namor to NY. However Col_Fury will present a detailed analysis of SUB-M#38-FB in the later thread.
As it is here:-
M/MC#2/3(1-12) is completely covered.
SAGASM#3(3-6) is missed because it is a plain copy of M/MC#2/3(1:6-4:2).
SAGASM#3(11:4 onwards) is a retelling of M/MC#3/3.
This appears to be the same as Dhall's version but there are actually differences.
A minor diff is that Col_Fury specifically includes SAGASM#3(1-2) between M/MC#2/3 1:3 and 1:4.
Another minor diff is that both panels with Namor diving out of the window are listed next to each other (SAGASM#3(7:4)-FB and M/MC#2/3(4:3))
A major diff is that the thrown cop car incident is separated into 2 different places because SAGASM#3(9 within 7:5-10:2) and M/MC#2/3(11:6-11:7) are both mentioned specifically. M/MC#2/3(11:6-11:7) obviously has to stay where it is in relation to other M/MC#2/3 entries. But SAGASM#3(7:5-10:2) (chased by a cop car and throws it with the cops inside) is now before M/MC#2/3(4:4-11:5) (Central Park and burning woman incidents which end with cops chasing him).
Now consider the SUBC#32/3 entries. Col_Fury has taken the main chunk of this which Dhall placed before the attack on the power station and spread in out in pieces. He starts by interpolating parts of the attack on the reservoir with parts of the attack on the power station in M/MC#2/3.
Effectively he equates the 2 entries via tube, and the 2 attacks on different types of place. Also he equates the cop/guard shooting at him here with the 1 in SAGASM. (I must admit that Roy Thomas in SAGASM probably *did* add that bit from here to his retelling of the powerhouse incident.)
He then has 3 bits all ending with a cop car being thrown:-
SAGASM#3(7:5-10:2)-FB He's chased by a cop car and throws it with the cops inside then flies off.
M/MYSTERY#2/3(4:4-11:5) The Central Park and burning woman incidents. A police car and motorcycle chase him and the police shoot at him.
SUB-MARINER COMICS#32/3(5:1-5:3) He throws a chasing police car.
M/MYSTERY#2/3(11:6-11:7) He throws their police car at them.
So he's obviously linking the thrown police cars in SUBC#32/3 and M/MC#2/3. But it could also be read that he's still linking the SAGASM#3 version to them both. My claim above that he's separated them might have been due to the unfortunate order they've been written which makes it only *look* like the SAGASM version precedes the Central Park and burning woman incidents. In this case just moving SAGASM#3(7:5-10:2)-FB to after M/MC#2/3(4:4-11:5) would make it more obvious, and the order of presentation of the 3 police car throws would then be irrelevant. But then again maybe Col_Fury really *meant* to separate SAGASM from the others.
Then the Betty Dean (and McKenzie) section of SUBC#32/3 follows, and is placed before SAGASM's fires and wrecked subway tracks. Which is then followed by M/MC#3/3's Betty Dean stuff repeated in SAGASM. But the strange thing about that is that those last 2 have Betty being asked if she's heard about Namor's rampage, when in SUBC#32 she's already been tasked with stopping him. I would have thought that if all Betty's adventures with Subby are to be taken seriously then all the scenes of her being recruited against him should be taken as the same scene, and all her interactions with Namor should follow *that*. Ie her part of SUBC#32 should be fitted into M/MC#3/3, I would say before the pretending to be drowning tactic in M/MC#3 & SAGASM.
I'll continue with Col_Fury's 6/10/2014 SUB-M 38-FB thread next time.
In the 1st the relevant part of Namor's chronology is:-
SUB-M 38-FB
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (delete)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
M/COMICS 1/3 (9:1 - 9:2)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:4)
SAGASM 2 (22)-FB
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (2 - 3:3)
*M/COMICS 1/3 (9:3 - 12)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
SAGASM 3 (1 - 2)-FB
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:4 - 1:5)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (3:4 - 3:9)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:6 - 2)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (4)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (3 - 4:2)
SAGASM 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:3)
SAGASM 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:4)
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (12)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:5 - 12)
SAGASM 3 (10:3 - 11:3)-FB
Note that SAGASUB is still SAGASM and the modern SUB is still SUB-M. SUB-MARINER COMICS is still written in full but MARVEL (MYSTERY) COMICS has been shortened to M/COMICS and M/MYSTERY.
Col_Fury pointed out that SUB-MARINER COMICS#32/2 should really be 32/3 because there's a non-Subby text detective story between the 1st and 2nd comics. Either that or the 1-page Are You A Detective strip.
He also completed the panel numbering of M/MYSTERY#2/3 and SAGASM#3. And most significantly spread SUB-MARINER COMICS#32/3 throughout the range rather than having it only in 1 place as Dhall did.
I've added comments to illuminate how SUBC#32/3, M/MC#2/3 and SAGASM#3 now fit together.
SUB-M 38-FB
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
M/COMICS 1/3 (9:1 - 9:2)
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (1:4) Subby & Dorma leave for NY.
SAGASM 2 (22)-FB
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (2 - 3:3) They wreck a lighthouse which causes a ship to crash. He sends Dorma home when they see NY.
*M/COMICS 1/3 (9:3 - 12)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3) Namor dives from [Dorma's] plane and swims to New York.
SAGASM 3 (1 - 2)-FB He enters NY harbour after sending Dorma home.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:4 - 1:5) He swims in the harbour.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (3:4 - 3:9) He enters a tube to an upstate reservoir and muddies the water.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:6 - 2) He's sucked into a tube and breaks out into a powerhouse.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (4) He wrecks the feeder lines to the city. A cop(?) shoots at him. He hits him and swims off.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (3 - 4:2) He's shocked by a live wire and retaliates.
SAGASM 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB A cop(?) shoots at him and he dives out of a window.
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:3) He dives out of a window.
SAGASM 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB He's chased by a cop car and throws it with the cops inside then flies off.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5) He overturns a rowboat & policeman in Central Park lake. He takes clothes from a tramp in a sewer. He enters a 5th Avenue where a woman's dress catches fire which he douses with water from his body. He follows the ambulance which takes her to hospital and abducts her unconscious. A police car and motorcycle chase him and the police shoot at him.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3) He throws a chasing police car.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7) He throws their police car at them.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:4) He re-enters the river.
*M/MYSTERY 2/3 (12) He takes the woman into the river followed by 2 cops. He kills 1 while the other rescues the woman. He swims off.
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:5 - 12) Betty Dean is brought in. The patrol boat incident. Flooding the subway and the city. Message to the Mayor. Blows up Brooklyn Bridge. McKenzie & Dean attract his attention. Betty pulls a gun but he slaps it away. Caught in a net but escapes back to the river.
SAGASM 3 (10:3 - 11:3)-FB He starts some fires. He tears up some subway tracks. Betty Dean arrives at the police chief(?)'s office.
Col_Fury has corrected Dhall's page numbers for SAGASM p7-10 (instead of 9-11).
But he joins together 10:3-10:4 (fires & subway tracks) with 11:1-11:2 (the Green Line bus bit from SUB-M#38-FB) and eliminates the ref to SUB-M#38 here. He also joins SAGASM p11:3 to the 1st 2, possibly because this shows Betty Dean entering the police chief's office before the scenes from this and other issues where she is given her mission. (And MARVELS 1-FB has disappeared, never to reappear.)
SUB-M#38-FB is left with the lone entry at the beginning of this section, but this only represents Thakorr sending Namor to NY. However Col_Fury will present a detailed analysis of SUB-M#38-FB in the later thread.
As it is here:-
M/MC#2/3(1-12) is completely covered.
SAGASM#3(3-6) is missed because it is a plain copy of M/MC#2/3(1:6-4:2).
SAGASM#3(11:4 onwards) is a retelling of M/MC#3/3.
This appears to be the same as Dhall's version but there are actually differences.
A minor diff is that Col_Fury specifically includes SAGASM#3(1-2) between M/MC#2/3 1:3 and 1:4.
Another minor diff is that both panels with Namor diving out of the window are listed next to each other (SAGASM#3(7:4)-FB and M/MC#2/3(4:3))
A major diff is that the thrown cop car incident is separated into 2 different places because SAGASM#3(9 within 7:5-10:2) and M/MC#2/3(11:6-11:7) are both mentioned specifically. M/MC#2/3(11:6-11:7) obviously has to stay where it is in relation to other M/MC#2/3 entries. But SAGASM#3(7:5-10:2) (chased by a cop car and throws it with the cops inside) is now before M/MC#2/3(4:4-11:5) (Central Park and burning woman incidents which end with cops chasing him).
Now consider the SUBC#32/3 entries. Col_Fury has taken the main chunk of this which Dhall placed before the attack on the power station and spread in out in pieces. He starts by interpolating parts of the attack on the reservoir with parts of the attack on the power station in M/MC#2/3.
Effectively he equates the 2 entries via tube, and the 2 attacks on different types of place. Also he equates the cop/guard shooting at him here with the 1 in SAGASM. (I must admit that Roy Thomas in SAGASM probably *did* add that bit from here to his retelling of the powerhouse incident.)
He then has 3 bits all ending with a cop car being thrown:-
SAGASM#3(7:5-10:2)-FB He's chased by a cop car and throws it with the cops inside then flies off.
M/MYSTERY#2/3(4:4-11:5) The Central Park and burning woman incidents. A police car and motorcycle chase him and the police shoot at him.
SUB-MARINER COMICS#32/3(5:1-5:3) He throws a chasing police car.
M/MYSTERY#2/3(11:6-11:7) He throws their police car at them.
So he's obviously linking the thrown police cars in SUBC#32/3 and M/MC#2/3. But it could also be read that he's still linking the SAGASM#3 version to them both. My claim above that he's separated them might have been due to the unfortunate order they've been written which makes it only *look* like the SAGASM version precedes the Central Park and burning woman incidents. In this case just moving SAGASM#3(7:5-10:2)-FB to after M/MC#2/3(4:4-11:5) would make it more obvious, and the order of presentation of the 3 police car throws would then be irrelevant. But then again maybe Col_Fury really *meant* to separate SAGASM from the others.
Then the Betty Dean (and McKenzie) section of SUBC#32/3 follows, and is placed before SAGASM's fires and wrecked subway tracks. Which is then followed by M/MC#3/3's Betty Dean stuff repeated in SAGASM. But the strange thing about that is that those last 2 have Betty being asked if she's heard about Namor's rampage, when in SUBC#32 she's already been tasked with stopping him. I would have thought that if all Betty's adventures with Subby are to be taken seriously then all the scenes of her being recruited against him should be taken as the same scene, and all her interactions with Namor should follow *that*. Ie her part of SUBC#32 should be fitted into M/MC#3/3, I would say before the pretending to be drowning tactic in M/MC#3 & SAGASM.
I'll continue with Col_Fury's 6/10/2014 SUB-M 38-FB thread next time.
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
In Col_Fury's 6/9/2014 SUB-M#38-FB thread he split that issue up more. This is the part of Sub-Mariner's chronology that is relevant to Leoparis, and I've attached [comments] to the SUB-M#38 entries:-
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
*SUB-M 38 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB [N flies to NY]
SAGASM 3 (1 - 2)-FB
…
SAGASM 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB
*SUB-M 38 (10 - 15:3)-FB [the whole pre-Betty part including the bus throwing]
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:4)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (12)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:5 - 12)
*SAGASM 3 (10:4 - 11:3)-FB
*M/MYSTERY 3/3 (1 - 3:7)
*SUB-M 38 (16:1)-FB [N sees Betty in the water]
Dhall had all of this SUB-M#38 NY stuff after SAGASM#3(10:3-10:4).
Col_Fury has inserted SUB-M#38(9:4-9:5) with Namor flying to NY as part of the general going to NY section between M/MC's diving from Dorma's plane and SAGASM's swimming in NY harbour. This is reasonable given the conflicting versions of his arrival but possibly should be a bit earlier before the Dorma/lighthouse bits.
p10-15:3's NY rampage including a police chase and bus throwing is sandwiched between SAGASM(7:5-10:2)'s police chase/police car throwing and M/MC(4:4-11:5)'s Central Park/burning woman/police chase and before M/MC(11:6-11:7)'s police car throwing and SAGASM's bus throwing within (10:4-11:3). (But note that the last entry has perhaps accidentally lost 10:3 - the fires incident.) So he's separated the 2 instances of bus throwing and added to the number of police chases.
The succeeding Betty Dean stuff in SUB-M#38 is reasonably merged with M/MC#3/3, and an analysis of the exact relationship is outside this thread.
The final combination of Col_Fury's proposals matches exactly with the relevant section of the current MCP chronology for Sub-Mariner.
The whole of M/MC#2/3 is covered, as are the relevant sections SUB-M#38(9:4-15:3) and SUBC#32/3(3:4-12).
SAGASM#3 is missing:-
p3-6 (a copy of M/MC#2/3(1:6-4:2))
p10:3 (fires panel missed accidentally?)
It includes 11:3 (a Betty Dean app immediately before all others, or added accidentally?).
(It's not relevant to this thread but p11:4-21:1 are ignored later as a copy of most of M/MC#3/3.)
Next post I'll see how all this history bears on Leoparis' proposed changes.
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
*SUB-M 38 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB [N flies to NY]
SAGASM 3 (1 - 2)-FB
…
SAGASM 3 (7:5 - 10:2)-FB
*SUB-M 38 (10 - 15:3)-FB [the whole pre-Betty part including the bus throwing]
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:1 - 5:3)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:4)
M/MYSTERY 2/3 (12)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/3 (5:5 - 12)
*SAGASM 3 (10:4 - 11:3)-FB
*M/MYSTERY 3/3 (1 - 3:7)
*SUB-M 38 (16:1)-FB [N sees Betty in the water]
Dhall had all of this SUB-M#38 NY stuff after SAGASM#3(10:3-10:4).
Col_Fury has inserted SUB-M#38(9:4-9:5) with Namor flying to NY as part of the general going to NY section between M/MC's diving from Dorma's plane and SAGASM's swimming in NY harbour. This is reasonable given the conflicting versions of his arrival but possibly should be a bit earlier before the Dorma/lighthouse bits.
p10-15:3's NY rampage including a police chase and bus throwing is sandwiched between SAGASM(7:5-10:2)'s police chase/police car throwing and M/MC(4:4-11:5)'s Central Park/burning woman/police chase and before M/MC(11:6-11:7)'s police car throwing and SAGASM's bus throwing within (10:4-11:3). (But note that the last entry has perhaps accidentally lost 10:3 - the fires incident.) So he's separated the 2 instances of bus throwing and added to the number of police chases.
The succeeding Betty Dean stuff in SUB-M#38 is reasonably merged with M/MC#3/3, and an analysis of the exact relationship is outside this thread.
The final combination of Col_Fury's proposals matches exactly with the relevant section of the current MCP chronology for Sub-Mariner.
The whole of M/MC#2/3 is covered, as are the relevant sections SUB-M#38(9:4-15:3) and SUBC#32/3(3:4-12).
SAGASM#3 is missing:-
p3-6 (a copy of M/MC#2/3(1:6-4:2))
p10:3 (fires panel missed accidentally?)
It includes 11:3 (a Betty Dean app immediately before all others, or added accidentally?).
(It's not relevant to this thread but p11:4-21:1 are ignored later as a copy of most of M/MC#3/3.)
Next post I'll see how all this history bears on Leoparis' proposed changes.
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
Leoparis' suggestion for Sub-Mariner is
M/MC 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
SAGASUB 3 (1 - 2)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (1:4 - 4:2) powerhouse (1st disaster)
SAGASUB 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (4:3)
SAGASUB 3 (7:5 - 10:2) roaming in NY
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 12) Central Park, Fifth Avenue, waterfront
SUBC 32/3 (3:4 - 6:1) reservoir (2nd disaster)
SAGASUB 3 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB "third disaster this week" and 4th disaster
SUB 38 (9:5 - 15:3)-FB attempts to speak to population and leaves message on billboard
SUBC 32/3 (6:2 - 12) floods underwater subway & streets, bombs Brooklyn Bridge, writes mayor, meets McKenzie and Betty Dean, captured, escapes
M/MC 3/3 (1 - 3:7) Dean briefed on specific mission
The whole of M/MC#2/3 is specifically included.
SAGASUB#3 is still missing p3-6 because he agrees with the current chronology that it's just a faithful copy of the powerhouse incident in M/MC#2/3(1:4 - 4:2).
As Leoparis mentioned he reinstated the previously missing p10:3, the self-described 3rd disaster.
He omits p11:1-11:2 because it's a copy of SUB#38's throwing of the Green Line bus, which he's moved as part of the larger SUB#38(9:5-15:3) to be in its place.
He's dropped p11:3 because it features Betty Dean and not Namor, and really belongs with p11:4-11:5 and M/MC#3/3.
The whole of the relevant (3:4-12) part of SUBC#32/3 is specifically included.
He's dropped SUB#38(9:4) because it shows Namor starting to fly to NY and hence belongs before the start of the range of entries under the microscope. The rest of the relevant panel range (9:5-15:3) is specifically included.
I agree with the merging of the 2 Green Line bus throwing incidents. Roy Thomas clearly included the Green Line bus incident in SAGASUB#3(11:1-11:2) as a reference to his own SUB#38(11:8-12). Dhall originally also implemented this.
I also agree with separating the powerhouse (from M/MC#2/3) and reservoir (from SUBC#32/3) incidents. Again Dhall did this too. The only real similarity is that both start with Namor entering via a tube. But 1 is voluntary and in the other case he's sucked in. And as Leoparis points out separating them provides the necessary 2 disasters to complete the count of 4 Roy gives in SAGASUB.
So it turns out I agree with the whole of Leoparis' proposed changes.
But going through this whole process has led me to some further suggestions. However that's for the next post!
M/MC 2/3 (1:1 - 1:3)
SAGASUB 3 (1 - 2)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (1:4 - 4:2) powerhouse (1st disaster)
SAGASUB 3 (7:1 - 7:4)-FB
M/MC 2/3 (4:3)
SAGASUB 3 (7:5 - 10:2) roaming in NY
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 12) Central Park, Fifth Avenue, waterfront
SUBC 32/3 (3:4 - 6:1) reservoir (2nd disaster)
SAGASUB 3 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB "third disaster this week" and 4th disaster
SUB 38 (9:5 - 15:3)-FB attempts to speak to population and leaves message on billboard
SUBC 32/3 (6:2 - 12) floods underwater subway & streets, bombs Brooklyn Bridge, writes mayor, meets McKenzie and Betty Dean, captured, escapes
M/MC 3/3 (1 - 3:7) Dean briefed on specific mission
The whole of M/MC#2/3 is specifically included.
SAGASUB#3 is still missing p3-6 because he agrees with the current chronology that it's just a faithful copy of the powerhouse incident in M/MC#2/3(1:4 - 4:2).
As Leoparis mentioned he reinstated the previously missing p10:3, the self-described 3rd disaster.
He omits p11:1-11:2 because it's a copy of SUB#38's throwing of the Green Line bus, which he's moved as part of the larger SUB#38(9:5-15:3) to be in its place.
He's dropped p11:3 because it features Betty Dean and not Namor, and really belongs with p11:4-11:5 and M/MC#3/3.
The whole of the relevant (3:4-12) part of SUBC#32/3 is specifically included.
He's dropped SUB#38(9:4) because it shows Namor starting to fly to NY and hence belongs before the start of the range of entries under the microscope. The rest of the relevant panel range (9:5-15:3) is specifically included.
I agree with the merging of the 2 Green Line bus throwing incidents. Roy Thomas clearly included the Green Line bus incident in SAGASUB#3(11:1-11:2) as a reference to his own SUB#38(11:8-12). Dhall originally also implemented this.
I also agree with separating the powerhouse (from M/MC#2/3) and reservoir (from SUBC#32/3) incidents. Again Dhall did this too. The only real similarity is that both start with Namor entering via a tube. But 1 is voluntary and in the other case he's sucked in. And as Leoparis points out separating them provides the necessary 2 disasters to complete the count of 4 Roy gives in SAGASUB.
So it turns out I agree with the whole of Leoparis' proposed changes.
But going through this whole process has led me to some further suggestions. However that's for the next post!
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
My further ideas have foundered on a tangle of irreconcilable contradictions. I hope to return to them in a separate thread. But for now I'm signing off.
Re: Sub-Mariner's first New York attack
With the deletion of some lines, the three lines below can be subsumed into one: M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 12)
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
M/MC 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
M/MC 2/3 (12)
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR
M/MC 2/3 (4:4 - 11:5)
M/MC 2/3 (11:6 - 11:7)
M/MC 2/3 (12)