MK8 1-14

[Leoparis]

Moon Knight is marked as BTS in his own series in MK8 1-14. That sounds to me a bit extreme.

Even if the whole story was only a dream (I'm not sure it is), we can consider that his dreamself is an appearance of the character. In this regard it's like an astral self on a mental plane. I'm sure we've had characters appearing only as a mental self before and marked them as any other appearance.

In addition the last pages of issue 14 are him waking up under the rain. How would these not be marked as an appearance?

And Khonshu is probably present in all or some of these issues. The next storyline, from MK 188, acknowledges Khonshu as real.

[Russ Chappell]

I don't have the book in front of me; I'm only addressing the policies/philosophies raised in your post.

Even if the whole story was only a dream ..., we can consider that his dreamself is an appearance of the character.

From the FAQ:

3. Was this really an appearance, as opposed to a dream sequence, a remembrance, or an apocryphal story? Many web pages elect to list these kinds of appearances, which is fine. But remember: we're the Marvel Chronology Project, not the Marvel Appearances Project.

If it's truly a dream, we wouldn't normally list it. A character could conceivably have the power to show real events in their dreams, and in that case, you could make an exception.

In addition the last pages of issue 14 are him waking up under the rain. How would these not be marked as an appearance?

It should be.

[Midnighter]

I don't know whether it should be considered as a simple dream or as a kind of adventure in the dream plane, and if so, treat it in a manner similar to what is done with telepaths and the like when they are in action on the astral plane.

[Russ Chappell]

What about other characters who appear in the story?

[Leoparis]

I don't have the book in front of me; I'm only addressing the policies/philosophies raised in your post.

Even if the whole story was only a dream ..., we can consider that his dreamself is an appearance of the character.

From the FAQ:

3. Was this really an appearance, as opposed to a dream sequence, a remembrance, or an apocryphal story? Many web pages elect to list these kinds of appearances, which is fine. But remember: we're the Marvel Chronology Project, not the Marvel Appearances Project.

If it's truly a dream, we wouldn't normally list it. A character could conceivably have the power to show real events in their dreams, and in that case, you could make an exception.

The summaries for each issue do not characterize the storyline as a dream.
In those 14 issues Marc Spector processes his relationship with the god Khonshu. The writer does not provide the code to interpret the issues as it should be when dealing with a character experiencing multiple personas as well as divine visitations. Anyway, given the tradition of gods intervening through dreams, it could hardly be treated as a regular dream even if we chose this interpretation.

That quote from the FAQ seems inapplicable in that regard.

Reducing the fourteen issues to total unreality (no character is real, only Marc Spector is dreaming) is... reductive.

The "dream" here could be as real as any story taking place on an astral plane.

I think the last time so many appearances of a feature character became non-canon was when Roy Thomas decided that the story of Conan's youth in COB 232-240 was fictional. But that came from a change of writers and I notice the MCP treated it as canon.

Lemire is the sole writer and he ends his storyline the way it started, with the feature character on a roof.

The minimum (or a middle ground depending on one's position) is to index Moon Knight and Khonshu as present.

PS: For the other characters, I'm not sure. I'd have to read it again to see if they can be based on Spector's memories (like he says to Gena) or if some have to be real. My feeling is Spector and Khonshu will probably be the only ones that are certain.

[Russ Chappell]

The summaries for each issue do not characterize the storyline as a dream.

Again, I don't have the books in front of me; I'm just responding to what you're writing. You implied previously that we don't find out until issue 14 that the entire story is a "dream." If that's the case, I wouldn't expect the summaries for each issue to characterize the storyline as a dream. That would defeat the purpose.

In those 14 issues Marc Spector processes his relationship with the god Khonshu. The writer does not provide the code to interpret the issues as it should be when dealing with a character experiencing multiple personas as well as divine visitations. Anyway, given the tradition of gods intervening through dreams, it could hardly be treated as a regular dream even if we chose this interpretation.

That quote from the FAQ seems inapplicable in that regard.

It seems imminently applicable to me. I cited the FAQ when you said, basically, "Even if it's a dream, we should list the appearances." I was pointing out that we shouldn't do that, UNLESS someone has the power to show real events in dreams. In your response, you contend that it's NOT a dream. (And that's fine, but I won't take part in that discussion, until I've read the books.) You then pointed out that gods have the power to actually appear in dreams, which is the very exception I cited. My quote seems entirely applicable to me.

Reducing the fourteen issues to total unreality (no character is real, only Marc Spector is dreaming) is... reductive.

I think I...agree with you. But blame Marvel for that, not us.

I think the last time so many appearances of a feature character became non-canon was when Roy Thomas decided that the story of Conan's youth in COB 232-240 was fictional. But that came from a change of writers and I notice the MCP treated it as canon.

Eh. Byrne's early Spider-Man retcon jumps to mind. We were promised it was the real deal. How long did X-Men: First Class last? Even if you're right, so what? Someone has to win the lottery.

The minimum (or a middle ground depending on one's position) is to index Moon Knight and Khonshu as present.

For Khonshu, you make a good point, if he's trying to communicate with Spector. For Moon Knight, not so much, as I suspect the communication is with Spector's subconscious, not the character himself. But again, I haven't read the story.

[Leoparis]

Again, I don't have the books in front of me; I'm just responding to what you're writing. You implied previously that we don't find out until issue 14 that the entire story is a "dream." If that's the case, I wouldn't expect the summaries for each issue to characterize the storyline as a dream. That would defeat the purpose.

Will the person who indexed the story please stand up?

It's difficult to have a meaningful conversation or argument with somebody who is unfamiliar with the story at issue.

It seems imminently applicable to me. I cited the FAQ when you said, basically, "Even if it's a dream, we should list the appearances." I was pointing out that we shouldn't do that, UNLESS someone has the power to show real events in dreams. In your response, you contend that it's NOT a dream. (And that's fine, but I won't take part in that discussion, until I've read the books.) You then pointed out that gods have the power to actually appear in dreams, which is the very exception I cited. My quote seems entirely applicable to me.

This is what I actually wrote,

Even if the whole story was only a dream (I'm not sure it is), we can consider that his dreamself is an appearance of the character. In this regard it's like an astral self on a mental plane. I'm sure we've had characters appearing only as a mental self before and marked them as any other appearance.

Mea culpa. I totally missed that "Gods intervening through dreams" was meant by "having the power to show real events". My point was, This is not a dream or at least not a regular dream; We do have actual characters (Khonshu and Spector) interacting on a mental landscape, not remote events (in time or space) seen through the medium of dreams. I'm relieved what you meant is, this quote opens the door to a more accurate indexing.

I think I...agree with you. But blame Marvel for that, not us.

I do not think Marvel reduced the whole story to a dream. We did that by having Moon Knight as the only character, and BTS throughout at that. The writer had left it ambiguous and at the very least the opening page on the roof in issue 1 and/or the last pages of issue 14 would be appearances of Spector before Khonshu pulls him into the astral plane/dreamplane. (And so appearance by Khonshu as well.)

Eh. Byrne's early Spider-Man retcon jumps to mind. We were promised it was the real deal. How long did X-Men: First Class last? Even if you're right, so what? Someone has to win the lottery.

These were not the regular series and also they were set in the past.

The Hulk issues by Bruce Jones are probably a better example. Both Roy Thomas (for Conan) and Peter David (for Hulk) were careful to say the status of the previous stories was uncertain, with a mix of real and unreal elements. Characters of both runs have been included in the MCP in spite of the uncertainty.

(The Hulk and Samson appearances are included while Betty Ross (as Mister Blue) is not but could be. I need to get there as I may have a solution.)

For Khonshu, you make a good point, if he's trying to communicate with Spector. For Moon Knight, not so much, as I suspect the communication is with Spector's subconscious, not the character himself. But again, I haven't read the story.

Moon Knight's reasoning capacities (like when he is addressing Gena and wondering if he's speaking with the real Gena or his memory of her) go beyond those of the subconscious.
Each of his personalities is making a conscious decision at the end to dismiss Khonshu. And Spector is not in sleep mode when addressed by Khonshu on the first page. There is more than one model for the subconscious but, as far as I know, there is only one subconscious per individual and none of the outward personalities would be it.

Anyway, options:

1. Appearances by Moon Knight in #1 and #14 (every other character including Khonshu deemed unreal if he's merely dreaming standing on the roof)
Assessment: Unsatisfactory. Some readers have pointed that reducing Khonshu to a fiction of Spector's mind was not a sustainable interpretation.

2. Appearances by Spector and Khonshu from #1 to #14.
Assessment: Most reasonable option. The feature character is present in every issue and all the things he experiences are visions from Khonshu, who is either there in person or behind the scenes.

3. Appearances by other characters in addition to these two. Emmet, Billy and Bobby are the prime contenders. It's possible that through visions we do see an escape from a psychiatric hospital in the first two arcs. (Emmet was also the doctor who treated him when he was a youth, cf. #11)
Assessment: Deserves further investigation.

I take Gena, Crawley, Frenchie and Marlene as visions.
I take Dr. Emmet, Billy and Bobby as real (Emmet is indexed as real with MK8 10-VO so why not in the earlier issues.)
I consider Khonshu present when visible, bts throughout as there is a continual Egyptian influence.
Unsure about the other Egyptian Gods: Ammut, Anubis, Sobek, Seth, Anput. But mostly in favor. If I accept a Khonshu influence, accepting the others is natural.

Suggested revisions:
MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY"
CWII:CS 2/3-BTS
MK8 1
MK8 2
MK8 3
MK8 4
MK8 5
MK8 6
MK8 7
MK8 8
MK8 9
MK8 10
MK8 11
MK8 12
MK8 13
MK8 14
MK 189

KHONSHU
SHDWL:MK 3
MK8 1
MK8 2
MK8 3
MK8 4
MK8 5-BTS
MK8 6-BTS
MK8 7-BTS
MK8 8-BTS
MK8 9-BTS
MK8 10
MK8 11-BTS
MK8 12-BTS
MK8 13-VO
MK8 14

BILLY
MK8 1
MK8 2
MK8 3
MK8 5
MK8 8
MK8 14

BOBBY
MK8 1
MK8 2
MK8 3
MK8 5
MK8 8
MK8 14

EMMET, DR.
MK8 11-FB
*MK8 1
*MK8 2
*MK8 3
*MK8 8
MK8 10-VO
*MK8 14
MK 188

AMMUT
MK8 3 ?
MK8 14 ?

ANUBIS
MK8 3 ?
MK8 10 ?
MK8 12 ?

SOBEK
MK8 4 ?

SETH
MK8 5 ?

ANPUT
MK8 11 ?
MK8 12 ?

I have strained at finding the right words to make myself properly understood. If people other than myself familiar with the story could carry out that conversation and weigh in... I think Midnighter made a good point.

Revised Nov 26 to suggest listings

[Russ Chappell]

It's difficult to have a meaningful conversation or argument with somebody who is unfamiliar with the story at issue.

Okay. I'll stop.