Discussions on Flashbacks & Page/Panel Breakdowns

[StrayLamb]

I've copied a number of discussions here on the procedures for placing flashbacks and page/panel breakdowns, as it could be a helpful reference.

Manolis is also in DD 230 (16:4)-FB.
By the way, is there a reason we cannot index those three panels as DD 230 (16 - 17)-FB or leave them as 230-FB like it used to be?
When we index Obnoxio as ABCD 87, it means he appears on some pages of issue 87, not necessarily from the first to the last panel.

And if the rule is to index by strict panel appearance when we add an indication, then DD 230 (14:4 - 22)-OP should be (14:4)-OP.
DD 230 shifts between various scenes. The hospital where Manolis is murdered is a secondary setting and does not appear after panel 14:4. There is also a church where Matt recovers, the bar where Foggy meets Karen, the floor where Kingpin parties. It is very odd to have Manolis off panel from 14:4 to the end of the issue, especially as he's dead. Because of that line, I was looking for him later than 14:4.

Manolis is also in DD 230 (16:4)-FB.
By the way, is there a reason we cannot index those three panels as DD 230 (16 - 17)-FB or leave them as 230-FB like it used to be?

Let me preface my comments by saying I do not have DD 230 in front of me. I can only respond to your questions as they're written, in general terms.

We cannot leave it like it used to be. A character can appear in any number of flashbacks within an issue, and they would receive a simple, single FB line in the listings (such as DD 230-FB), AS LONG AS:
1) no other appearances come either between or inside any of those flashbacks; AND
2) the flashbacks are in sequential order

However, once we fail either of these tests, we break down the pages, and we break down all of them.

What that means:
Let's say a character appears in four separate flashbacks of DD 230, page (3), page (7), page (11), and page (15). The flashbacks occur in that order. The character makes no appearances anywhere else, between these flashbacks.

We can say: DD 230-FB

If the flashbacks occur out of order, we break them down individually:

DD 230 (7)-FB
DD 230 (3)-FB
DD 230 (11)-FB
DD 230 (15)-FB

If the character appears anywhere else among the flashbacks, we break them down individually:

DD 230 (3)-FB
DD 229
DD 230 (7)-FB
DD 230 (11)-FB
DD 230 (15)-FB

And if the rule is to index by strict panel appearance when we add an indication, then DD 230 (14:4 - 22)-OP should be (14:4)-OP.
DD 230 shifts between various scenes. The hospital where Manolis is murdered is a secondary setting and does not appear after panel 14:4. There is also a church where Matt recovers, the bar where Foggy meets Karen, the floor where Kingpin parties. It is very odd to have Manolis off panel from 14:4 to the end of the issue, especially as he's dead. Because of that line, I was looking for him later than 14:4.

This is a much trickier question, but I'll try.

The rule is not to "index by strict panel appearance when we add an indication." Let's say page 11 is a flashback, and our character appears only in panels 1 and 5 of page 11. A strict interpretation of your condition would require us to list like so:

DD 230 (7)-FB
DD 230 (11:1)-FB
DD 230 (11:5)-FB
DD 230 (15)-FB

The process that I've been following recently, is to follow the skeletons laid out by Paul, Fury and michel. When they have a page breakdown, that breakdown is an "act", similar to a play or television episode. An act may consist of several scenes, but nothing else is breaking up that "act." For instance, michel might have the following:

BLUE THUNDER SQUAD 12 (1 - 5)
HELIUM GIRL 5
BLUE THUNDER SQUAD 12 (6 - 23)

Helium Girl 5 consists of one act. Blue Thunder Squad 12 consists of two acts. Pages 6 - 13 might focus exclusively on team member Dyna-Girl, and take place in New York City. Pages 14 - 23 might take place two weeks later, and focus on her boyfriend Flatulence Lad's trip to London. Even though these are two distinct scenes, separated by significant time, it's one act. If both characters appear in all three of the segments above, both of them would receive the same listing (as above).

You might be horrified by that--that I would imply that Dyna-Girl appears in the entire segment from pages 6 -23, and likewise for Flatulence Lad--but that's the way I treat it.

Good job RobinHoodMtl. I'll take the OP/not OP differences. But:

You shouldn't change
A 4 (9:4 - 15)
into
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify)
A 4 (15:2) (add)

Two contiguous appearances should be merged, even if the character only appear in the last panel of the range.

I have to disagree on this one. I understand Russ's rule about contiguous panels and all, but I think it refers to a same scene, doesn't it? But it is not exactly the case here. Allow me to break it down for you:

A 4 (8:4 - 9:1): The Avengers are turned to stone by VuK. Note that I did not exclude 9:1 even if the Avengers do not appear because it is part of the scene.
[..]
A 4 (9:4 - 15:1)-BTS (modify): Simultaneous to a long series of scenes where Cap sees the petrified Avengers outside the ship; Cap meets Rick Jones; they investigate and identify the culprit on a photo; the Teen Brigade lends a hand; Cap, by himself, finds Vuk in his hotel room and hears his story; then they leave to fix the Avengers.
A 4 (15:2) (add): Minutes later, they both arrive at the warehouse where Rick is keeping an eye on the petrified Avengers and Vuk turns them back to normal. Different place, different time, different cast, different scene.

If Cap had found Vuk in the warehouse instead of the hotel room, I would have agreed with your point. But here, we have different place, different time, different cast, different scene. Even Cap's listing has it separated by CA:MOOT 2 (22).

On a side note, this is also why I added A 4 (12:1 - 12:3)-BTS in Rick Jones' listing because he's most likely the one who asked the Teen Brigade to help in their search.

You also propose:

A 4 (14:2 - 15:1)
CA:MOOT 2 (22)
A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) (modify - 15:3-15:4 are only about Subby)
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23)

I presume that the A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) line was placed here as a block because those panels occur between sequences from two other books. And the reason why he did not have A 4 (15:2 - 15:6). instead is because you have SAGASUB 8 (19:5 - 19:6)-FB after 15:4. To be consistent with your reasoning, you should have had A 4 (15:2 - 15:4) for Namor too which is not the case.

But I'm bringing the same point here. A 4 (15:3 - 15:4) switch from the warehouse to a totally different scene with Namor by himself in his castle, disappointed that his plan has failed. This is also why there should be a A 4 (8:3-15:2)-BTS for Namor in his listing. Vuk clearly acted at his request and the narrative in A 4 (15:3) implies that he's been monitoring the whole thing with his undersea scanner. And for Vuk, there should be a line A 4 (8:3-9:1)-OP because he was in the crowd when he turned the Avengers to stone, but his listing does not have it. I guess I spoke too fast when I assumed the short listings for he and Subby were OK.

On another matter, do you think someone will be able to check the thread I created about Avengers 1 vs. Avengers: The Origin? I know it's a big one, but there are many adjustments to make and it would be deplorable to waste such a thorough analysis.

I would caution you not to get hung up on "scenes." Check out this post, paying special attention to the "trickier question" in the second half of the post. The other directors may not follow these same guidelines, but It's what I do.

Yeah, I read that. From what I understand, the listing are book-based instead of character-based. The cutting of sequences is determined by the timelines in the books, which, if this is the case, is a perfect approach. So for a given event, like he Birth of the Avengers or Captain America joining them, the general sequence alternates from a book to the other following the progression of the story panel to panel. So to illustrate my understanding of your method, let's say that for a given story, three books are telling about the same story, and the series are called A, B and C. And the cutting of all scenes in that story/arc could go something like this:

1. C 10 (1-4)
2. A 1 (1-11)
3. B 7 (1-2:1)
4. C 10 (5-6)
5. B 7 (2:2)
6. C 10 (5-7)
7. B 7 (2:3-10)
8. A 1 (12:1-12-6)
9. B 7 (11-23)
10. B 8
11. A 1 (13-14:3)
12. C 10 (8:1-8:4)
13. B 9
14. C 10 (8:5)
15. A 1 (8:5-22)
16. C 10 (9)

So let's say Girafe Lady is our main character in this arc and appears at least once in each of these items. Listing for Girafe Lady would be the same as the whole listing above. So far so good?

Elephant Man is her partner and appears only in lines 2 and 11, both in book A. I suppose that his listing would not be broken down and would only have A 1?

Monkey Business is their friend. He appears in the same panels as Elephant Man, but also on line 7. Will his listing go as follows?
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (2:3-10)
A 1 (12-22)

The Scribe is an observer who writes chronicles about the whole story after monitoring it from his spaceship. The Scribe first appeared in book C, which was published way after books A and B, therefore he only appears in book C where he comments interviews Girafe Girl on what he saw of her adventure. His listing will also have all of the items in the list, but will all be BTS except for those in book C. Still good?

Mr. Safari is the villain. He appears in lines 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 15. Lines 3, 5, 7 will be merged into B 7 (1-10) in his listing. And even though he only appears in last panel in line 9 and makes a single panel cameo in line 10, I figure that you would list him like this:
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (1-10)
A 1 (12:1-12-6)
B 7 (11-23)
B 8
A 1 (8:5-22)

Still correct?

The Cosmic Editor is the Scribe's boss and only appears during the whole page of line 16. Since he never observed the events and only reads the Scribe's chronicles, his listing would have C 10? Or C 10 (9)?

I understand that cutting the story only when they switch from a book to the other is convenient and much easier that analyzing the panels for each character and that is probably why, if my assumptions are correct, you chose this method. Yet from the characters' perspective, I find it rather simplistic and does not represent their appearances if you do not take into consideration the time gaps or major changes of scenes that may occur in a single line.

My suggestions of the last few days were made on the assumption that the listings were character-based and that the rules you've set could sometimes be adapted under certain circumstances when logic would prevail. But hey, your baby, your rules! If all my scenarii above were correct and this interpretation is the way you work, I'll respect that and do my best to take it into consideration in my next suggestions.

Yeah, I read that. From what I understand, the listing are book-based instead of character-based. The cutting of sequences is determined by the timelines in the books, which, if this is the case, is a perfect approach. So for a given event, like he Birth of the Avengers or Captain America joining them, the general sequence alternates from a book to the other following the progression of the story panel to panel.

Yes, that's the case.

So to illustrate my understanding of your method, let's say that for a given story, three books are telling about the same story, and the series are called A, B and C. And the cutting of all scenes in that story/arc could go something like this:

1. C 10 (1-4)
2. A 1 (1-11)
3. B 7 (1-2:1)
4. C 10 (5-6)
5. B 7 (2:2)
6. C 10 (5-7)
7. B 7 (2:3-10)
8. A 1 (12:1-12-6)
9. B 7 (11-23)
10. B 8
11. A 1 (13-14:3)
12. C 10 (8:1-8:4)
13. B 9
14. C 10 (8:5)
15. A 1 (8:5-22)
16. C 10 (9)

So let's say Girafe Lady is our main character in this arc and appears at least once in each of these items. Listing for Girafe Lady would be the same as the whole listing above. So far so good?

No, in your chronological timeline, a single panel can only appear on one line if it's not a FB and time travel isn't involved.
So line 6 should be C 10 (7) and line 15 should be A 1 (14:4 - 22).
You don't mention A 1 (12:7) so line 8 should be A 1 (12).

Elephant Man is her partner and appears only in lines 2 and 11, both in book A. I suppose that his listing would not be broken down and would only have A 1?

Yes

Monkey Business is their friend. He appears in the same panels as Elephant Man, but also on line 7. Will his listing go as follows?
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (2:3-10)
A 1 (12-22)

No, the second line will only be B 7. B 7 only appears once in his listing so there's no need for page breaking.

The Scribe is an observer who writes chronicles about the whole story after monitoring it from his spaceship. The Scribe first appeared in book C, which was published way after books A and B, therefore he only appears in book C where he comments interviews Girafe Girl on what he saw of her adventure. His listing will also have all of the items in the list, but will all be BTS except for those in book C. Still good?

It looks like C 10 has a frame story, the Scribe interviewing Girafe Girl after her adventure, and also has FB intersected with books A and B. If that's right, you should distinct them in your timeline, and exclude FB that are just retellings with no new element.

Mr. Safari is the villain. He appears in lines 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 15. Lines 3, 5, 7 will be merged into B 7 (1-10) in his listing. And even though he only appears in last panel in line 9 and makes a single panel cameo in line 10, I figure that you would list him like this:
A 1 (1-11)
B 7 (1-10)
A 1 (12:1-12-6)
B 7 (11-23)
B 8
A 1 (8:5-22)

Still correct?

The last line should be A 1 (13-22). A 1 (8:5-12) shouldn't appear twice.

The Cosmic Editor is the Scribe's boss and only appears during the whole page of line 16. Since he never observed the events and only reads the Scribe's chronicles, his listing would have C 10? Or C 10 (9)?

C 10.

So to illustrate my understanding of your method, let's say that for a given story, three books are telling about the same story, and the series are called A, B and C. And the cutting of all scenes in that story/arc could go something like this:

1. C 10 (1-4)
2. A 1 (1-11)
3. B 7 (1-2:1)
4. C 10 (5-6)
5. B 7 (2:2)
6. C 10 (5-7)
7. B 7 (2:3-10)
8. A 1 (12:1-12-6)
9. B 7 (11-23)
10. B 8
11. A 1 (13-14:3)
12. C 10 (8:1-8:4)
13. B 9
14. C 10 (8:5)
15. A 1 (8:5-22)
16. C 10 (9)

You have some problems in your breakdown. Before we can intelligently discuss your questions and observations, you should correct these:

1. Book C 10: Your line 4 says pages 5-6, and line 6 says pages 5-7.

2. Book A 1: Line 8 says panels 1-6 of page 12. I don't see a panel 7 anywhere, so I assume that page 12 only has 6 panels. If that is the case, line 8 should read "A 1 (12)."

3. Book A 1: Line 15 says (8:5 - 22), but most of these pages are already included in all the previous lines for A 1 (2, 8, 11).

If some of these are flashbacks, then please indicate. You may have mentioned this in your discussion of the breakdown, but your breakdown should reflect that.

You have some problems in your breakdown. Before we can intelligently discuss your questions and observations, you should correct these:

1. Book C 10: Your line 4 says pages 5-6, and line 6 says pages 5-7.

2. Book A 1: Line 8 says panels 1-6 of page 12. I don't see a panel 7 anywhere, so I assume that page 12 only has 6 panels. If that is the case, line 8 should read "A 1 (12)."

3. Book A 1: Line 15 says (8:5 - 22), but most of these pages are already included in all the previous lines for A 1 (2, 8, 11).

If some of these are flashbacks, then please indicate. You may have mentioned this in your discussion of the breakdown, but your breakdown should reflect that.

Rereading my post today, I realize that I was getting really tired when I wrote this! My brains weren't up to the task and I should have just saved it as a draft. Sorry about that!


Anyway, the errors you all pointed out illustrate quite well the way you listings work and should appear. So in a way, my mistakes helped identifying what not to do! Thanks for taking the time to clear that up for me. Now I have a more complete view on how to proceed in my suggestions.

While comparing my lists with yours, I've noticed a few instances where the guidelines discussed in the thread about Avengers 4 were not followed in the listings for characters, notably in the Avengers series. To avoid creating a new thread for each issue where there should be some corrections, I'll use only this one here to report my findings.

Actually I'd rather have you make a new thread for each issue (or block of issues). It will be easier for us to validate and to implemente.

Let's start with Avengers 5. These are really minor.

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
FF 26 (13:5 - 23)
A 5 (3:4 - 20:1) --> (replace by) A 5 (1 - 20:1)??

This one is more a question than a suggestion. I know he does not appear in the A 5 (1-3:3) scene which precedes his appearance in FF 25-26, but isn't it how you proceed even if he only appears in the A 5 (3:4 - 20:1) segment?

You're right, it should be A 5 (1 - 20:1) in Hulk's listing. That's exactly the kind of mistake that need to be corrected.

You're setting yourself up for trouble. You're alternatively indexing by issue (a character appearance should span the issue from the beginning or to the end) and by temporal segments (DD 228-230, where you decide that two Urich/Manolis panels are a flashback even though they occur in sequence).
There is a one week break on page 3 of A 5 and of course Hulk appears in other issues during that break.

Once you've broken up Hulk's appearance at 20:1 to insert the recap flashback from CA:MOOT 4, you have the end part of the notatiion (20:1) which is the exact range, and that seems odd to use page 1 as the starting part of that range. You end up with a notation using two different frames of reference.

(Not inserting the recap flashback would have avoided the problem but the question remains for issues where you have a valid break.)

Maybe it's time for editors to talk about this and figure it through.
Possible approach: Only feature characters are indexed in such a way as to cover the entire span of their issues. Hulk is not a feature character in A 5.

[StrayLamb]

Here are several minor adjustments that should be done to the listings to conform with general guidelines:

Which guideline is that?

General guidelines or rules or whatever policy this website follows. We've had that discussion before with michel. It's about the way to break appearances in listings when a character appears more than once in a story and there's another appearance in between. Basically, if you check the changes I propose, you should get the idea, right?
Example if a character appears in a scene at page 5 to 7 of book A, then only one place in book B, then on page 8 to 9 of book A, you would not list A (5 - 7). You would not list this way

Book A (5 - 7)
Book B
Book A (8 - 9)

You would list whole sequences from the beginning to the end of book A, like this:

Book A (1 - 7)
Book B
Book A (8 - 20) or whatever the last page is.

Am I correct or did I miss the whole point of that long discussion you and I had with michel?

Book A (5 - 7)
Book B
Book A (8 - 9)

You would list whole sequences from the beginning to the end of book A, like this:

Book A (1 - 7)
Book B
Book A (8 - 20) or whatever the last page is.

Am I correct or did I miss the whole point of that long discussion you and I had with michel?

Well, it's complicated.

You just have to be careful. Strictly speaking, the first sequence above would not be incorrect, if it's accurate. The second sequence is probably okay, too, but be aware of the potential pitfalls.

Let's say that a character only appears in the pages listed in your first sequence--that is, only in pages 5-7 and pages 8-9 of book A, separated by book B. But let's say that there's a significant break between pages 12 and 13 of book A. Furthermore, let's assume that Book C occurs in that gap between pages 12 & 13 of book A. Our character does NOT appear after page 9 of book A, but he DOES appear in book C.

Without giving any consideration to character appearances, the book chronology would look like this:

Book A (1 - 7)
Book B
Book A (8 - 12)
Book C
Book A (13 - 20)

The proper way to list the character chronology would be:

Book A (5 - 7)
Book B
Book A (8 - 9)
Book C

If you're in a period where there's not a lot of interweaving of characters and books, your suggested edits are probably appropriate. I'd be very nervous about doing that with a book like FF@ 3, though.

[StrayLamb]

@StrayLamb: If you are referring to my suggestion to add the FB-BTS line for Reed, I agree that it is not significant enough to necessarily appear in the listing even if an Official index mentions it.

Which brings the question, on what occasion would a FB-BTS tag be legitimate? I've seen it a on a few occasions in the listings, so there must be some reason behind it, though I cannot recall specifically where I've seen it.

The Stylebook has this to say regarding -BTS, and i believe b. is the relevant point:

BTS-The character does not appear on panel, but
a. has a direct impact on events; or
b. we are told on panel of the specific CURRENT wherabouts or actions of the character; or
c. is psychically controlling a character on panel; or
d. we KNOW the character is present, yet hidden from view (behind a door, in a vehicle or aircraft); or
e. another character on panel is acting under their direct orders. In this last case, only the first appearance of the on-panel character under orders warrants a BTS appearance, unless it is clear that the on-panel character CONTINUES to operate under direct orders in subsequent appearances.

My understanding is that for an -FB-BTS appearance, "we are told on panel of the specific CURRENT wherabouts or actions of the character" during the flashback. As you pointed out here,

Reed's behind the scene mention refers to the fact that the authorities "recently" gave legal custody of Dragon Man to Hank Pym on Reeds Richards recommendation. So technically, it's also a flashback BTS. While the index says during FF #63, Reed had his hands pretty full during the whole issue. He's not only helping Triton recover from battle injuries, but he's also dealing with those who injured him, namely Blastaar and Sandman. He even mentions it in pg13p1: "We have a more urgent problem to cope with...!" Although there are a few places within this issue where Reed is off panel, I strongly doubt that it was in Reed's top priorities to call the authorities to recommend the transfer of Dragon Man to Pym. I most likely occurred when their crisis was over.

Reed's recommendation that Dragon Man be handed over to Hank Pym occurred "recently," which is non-specific, so the mention of this in A 41 shouldn't really constitute an -FB-BTS in his listing.