Avengers 4 - Listings to adjust

[RobinHoodMtl]

Here is another topic marked as solved but for which I have to be the stubborn bad guy who reopens the discussion. Current listings have:

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
...
A 3 (22:3 - 25)
JIM 99
JIM 100
...

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK/"RICHARD FRANCO"
...
A 3 (13 - 25)
A 4 (2:1 - 2:4)
AC 3/2
...

GIANT-MAN/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
...
A 3 (13 - 25)
A 4 (2:2 - 2:4)
AC 3/2
...

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
...
A 3 (13 - 25)
A 4 (1 - 3)-OP
TTA 51/3
...

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
...
A 3
A 4 (1 - 2:4)
SAGASUB 8 (14 - 16:4)-FB
...

You can clearly see that the listings are inconsistent for all characters. The Avengers appear only in A 4 (2:1). A 4 (2:2 - 2:4) only show Namor. I assume here that A 4 (1 - 2:4) was kept for Namor because that this what you call a scene and that it is ended by a panel in another book. The same rule should apply then to all of the Avengers, but it is not the case.

If you look back at my first post on this topic, my initial suggestion was to keep A 4 (2:1) only if it was not considered a retelling and remove A 4 (2:2 - 2:4) for the Avengers. I later learned that if it is considered a scene, their appearance should cover the whole scene even if they are not in those specific panels. I can live with that.

There are a couple of things to take into consideration here:

1. Page one is a splash that has nothing to do with the story because it shows Thor welcoming Cap in the Avengers. It has no more weight here than a cover page and should be ignored in the listings (Subby's listing has kept it)
2. A 4 (2:1) could be considered a retelling but was probably kept for some characters because it leads to the next 3 panels. This panel, sans the Wasp, summarizes A 3 (25:6), so to me, it's a retelling at best. I would remove it for all characters, period.
3. On the other hand. If you consider that A 4 (2:1) shows a different point of view and that it is not a retelling, it should be marked as a flashback. We saw that scene. In addition, the narrative begins with "Remember the awesome battle between..." and the whole paragraphe is written in past tense.
4. Then the narrative in A 4 (2:2) switches to present tense until the rest of the book. it picks up right where A 3 left off, with Namor going back to the sea.
5. This means that the real story only begins at A 4 (2:2) and the actual scene should be A 4 (2:2 - 2:4). And since only Namor appears in it, it should be removed in the listings for all other characters.

To make an analogy, it's a bit like some Marvel stories which start in the middle of the action, they the narrative goes back in time to explain how they got there. Best example I can think of is TOS 46. Page 1 shows Iron trying to prevent a rocket from crashing. Then we go back two week earlier on page 2 where we learn how it all started and get the origin of the Crimson Dynamo. Then it quietly flows back to current time on page 7 that looks a lot like page 1. MCP lists this as a flashback with TOS 46 (2 - 6)-FB right before the framing sequence TOS 46 (1 - 12:2). Only difference here is that the flashback is only one panel and it is right in the beginning of the book.

Whether or not you agree with those points, I had to bring the matter up again so that, at least, the discrepancies between all characters are solved. What goes for Iron Man goes for Thor too.

[michel]

The listings are indeed inconsistent and have to be corrected. Here is my take on your remarks, but I'm only human and can make mistakes, so I can be corrected by other directors.

It's true that for early 60es comics, the first page is often a generic splash page and we don't consider it. But A 4 (1) has text and doesn't depict something happening during A 4 but rather just after A 4, so I wonder if A 4 (2 - 23) shouldn't be a FB. What does everyone think ?

I don't consider A 4 (2:1) as a retelling, because we don't see the same thing in A 3 (25:6) :

A 3 (25:5) : Namor frees himself
A 4 (2:1) : the Avengers try to catch him, Thor hurls his hammer
A 3 (25:6) : Namor flies away, Wasp urges Thor to hurl his hammer but he doesn't want to, thinks Namor earns his escape
A 4 (2:2) : Namor flies away from the rock
A 3 (25:7) : Namor dives into the ocean
A 4 (2:3 - up) : Namor swims in the ocean

If we agree A 4 (2 - 23)-FB is a FB, then we should use FB-FB for A 4 (2:1) and (2:2), but in cases like this, when the beginning of the next issue adds some scenes to the end of the former one, we've allowed to have the two issues intertwine without FB.

So I would have :

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
...
FF@ 1 (20 - 37)
A 3 --> CHANGE TO A 3 (1 - 25:5)
A 4 (1 - 2:4) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:1)-FB
A 3 (25:6) <-- ADD
A 4 (2:2)-FB <-- ADD
A 3 (25:7 - 25:8) <-- ADD
A 4 (2:3 - 2:4)-FB <-- ADD
SAGASUB 8 (14 - 16:4)-FB
AGEOH 4/2-FB
A 4 (2:5 - 2:7) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:5 - 2:7)-FB
CA:REBORN 3 (1 - 3)
A 4 (3:1) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (3:1)-FB
CA:REBORN 3 (4 - 7)
A 4 (3:2) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (3:2)-FB
FSON:IM (13)-FB
CA:REBORN 3 (8&9:1)
A 4 (3:3 - 3:8) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (3:3 - 3:8)-FB
SAGASUB 8 (17:4 - 17:5)-FB
SAGASUB 8 (19:4)-FB
A 4 (15:3 - 15:4) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (4 - 15:4)-FB
SAGASUB 8 (19:5 - 19:6)-FB
A 4 (15:5 - 15:6) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (15:5 - 15:6)-FB
SAGASUB 8 (19:7 - 20:2)-FB
A 4 (16 - 23) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (16 - 23)-FB
FF 27
...

GIANT-MAN/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
...
A:EMH 1 (17 - 18)
A 3 (13 - 25) --> CHANGE TO A 3 (13 - 25:5)
A 4 (2:2 - 2:4) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:1)-FB
A 3 (25:6 - 25:8) <-- ADD
AC 3/2
...
A:EMH 1 (22:7 - 23)-OP
A 4 (4:1) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:2 - 4:1)-FB
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
... [change all A 4 to A 4-FB]
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (16 - 23)-FB
A 4 <-- ADD
SENTRY 1-FB
...

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK/"RICHARD FRANCO"
...
A:EMH 1 (17 - 18)
A 3 (13 - 25) --> CHANGE TO A 3 (13 - 25:5)
A 4 (2:1 - 2:4) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:1)-FB
A 3 (25:6 - 25:8) <-- ADD
AC 3/2
...
A:EMH 1 (22:7 - 23)
A 4 (4:1) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:2 - 4:1)-FB
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
... [change all A 4 to A 4-FB]
A:EMH 2 (1 - 8)
A 4 (16 - 23) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (16 - 23)-FB
A 4 <-- ADD
AC 4/2
...

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
...
JIM 112-FB
A 3 (22:3 - 25) --> CHANGE TO A 3 (22:3 - 25:5)
A 4 (2:1)-FB <-- ADD
A 3 (25:6 - 25:8) <-- ADD
JIM 99
...
A:EMH 1 (22:7 - 23)-OP
A 4 (4:1) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:2 - 4:1)-FB
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
... [change all A 4 to A 4-FB]
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (16 - 23)-FB
A 4 <-- ADD
SENTRY 1-FB
...

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
...
A:EMH 1 (17 - 18)
A 3 (13 - 25) --> CHANGE TO A 3 (13 - 25:5)
A 4 (2:1)-FB-OP <-- ADD
A 3 (25:6 - 25:8) <-- ADD
A 4 (1 - 3)-OP <-- DELETE
TTA 51/3
...
A:EMH 1 (22:7 - 23)-OP
A 4 (4:1)-OP --> CHANGE TO A 4 (2:2 - 4:1)-FB
CA4 13 (12:2 - 14)-FB
... [change all A 4 to A 4-FB]
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (16 - 23)-FB
A 4 <-- ADD
SENTRY 1-FB
...

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
... [change all A 4 to A 4-FB]
A:EMH 2 (1 - 15)
A 4 (16 - 23) --> CHANGE TO A 4 (16 - 23)-FB
A 4 <-- ADD
AC 4/2
...

What do you all think ?

[RobinHoodMtl]

The listings are indeed inconsistent and have to be corrected. Here is my take on your remarks, but I'm only human and can make mistakes, so I can be corrected by other directors.

It's true that for early 60es comics, the first page is often a generic splash page and we don't consider it. But A 4 (1) has text and doesn't depict something happening during A 4 but rather just after A 4, so I wonder if A 4 (2 - 23) shouldn't be a FB. What does everyone think ?

As I mentioned, in this instance, the splash page appears to me like an artistic liberty to tease the readers that Cap will be joining the Avengers, much like a cover page would do it. That said, if we are to consider that it really happened, then you're right, the rest of the story can be viewed as a FB. Though it feels a bit odd to place a line as A 4, like we do for a frame story, since there is only one panel that is not a FB. But I can live with that too.

I don't consider A 4 (2:1) as a retelling, because we don't see the same thing in A 3 (25:6) :

A 3 (25:5) : Namor frees himself
A 4 (2:1) : the Avengers try to catch him, Thor hurls his hammer
A 3 (25:6) : Namor flies away, Wasp urges Thor to hurl his hammer but he doesn't want to, thinks Namor earns his escape
A 4 (2:2) : Namor flies away from the rock
A 3 (25:7) : Namor dives into the ocean
A 4 (2:3 - up) : Namor swims in the ocean

I still think that A 4 (2:1) is just a botched and inconsistent artistic attempt to summarize everything that was in A 3 (25:6), with Giant-Man's speech bubble sort of repeating a part of what the Wasp said in the previous issue ("He's getting away" is pretty much the same as "He's escaping"). And Thor having hurled his hammer is so insignificant a detail that, IMHO, this panel can be dismissed altogether. I other words, I would not put too much effort to over-rationalize this poorly executed panel that adds so little to the first version.

As for the rest of your breakdown, if we are to assume that A 4 (2 - 23) is a FB, then yes, that works for me. Let's see what the others have to say about this.

[Leoparis]

Three subjects at hand here: splash pages, intertwined adjoined issues, and slightly different recaps.

On the issue of splash pages, we all know they were used like covers, as a way to present the story and that this dates back from the time Marvel's magazines were anthologies and each story had to advertised to the reader. Avengers 4 is peculiar in that the scene would not take place during the story but after it.

I'm generally opposed to the FB tag when splash pages are involved. Since we include ranges, I'd rather list is as:
A 4 (2 -23)
A 4 (1)

But I wouldn't care to take splash pages into account. Since it's all from the same issue, I'd leave it to the reader to figure whether it's an actual scene, a symbolic scene, etc., rather than impose my reading of it.

On a similar count, I wouldn't bother to cut up the panels from two adjoining issues.

Even if the early panels of A 4 meshed with the last from A 3, I'd leave it straight. The issues are going to be read consecutively anyway, it's not like something added from fifteen years later.
A 3
A 4

Note: If it matters that much, possibly we could create a symbol to indicate issues intertwined at the beginning/end, like this:
A 3 ~
A 4

I fear I may be in the minority. I have a post coming soon (or not) on retellings, which will gather my previous notes. A search on "retelling" and "retellings" should turn up most of these. It most recently came up on TOS 39/IM 268 and A 41. In these two cases, it involved information from people who were not there or distorted through intermediaries, but it makes the point that we should ignore most recaps that slightly modify the events told.

Is it not in the interest of consensus and attractiveness not to involve ourselves in such trivial matters? I hope most would prefer to read my analyses than my opinions.