KING IN BLACK to DEATH OF DR STRANGE

[Spurs91]

Reading through the early parts of this period now.
In the Infinity Score story in Black Cat (8-10) Niguthawk refers back to events of Heroes Reborn (2021). Is that not being referenced here? Not 616? Obviously it's got 616's current Nighthawk in it, and from googling around, THE Mephisto? (maybe?) Certainly what I've just been reading about it makes it seem like it should matter to 616 Avengers...

[Midnighter]

Reading through the early parts of this period now.
In the Infinity Score story in Black Cat (8-10) Niguthawk refers back to events of Heroes Reborn (2021). Is that not being referenced here? Not 616? Obviously it's got 616's current Nighthawk in it, and from googling around, THE Mephisto? (maybe?) Certainly what I've just been reading about it makes it seem like it should matter to 616 Avengers...

Well, all of Heroes Reborn takes place between Avengers 45 an 46. The tie-ins... It's a bit peculiar, it's a situation similar to House of M: in theory it should be a distortion of reality 616 (Blade is aware of his past, as are the various characters who are "awakened"), so the various flashbacks narrated in the tie-ins should be "fake."
However, at least one character from those flashbacks (Nightbird, Gwen Stacy) will appear later, so that parallel reality (Earth-21798) exists with all its history.

[Spurs91]

So, at least put a note on those Black Cat issues (and Infinite Destinies) that they come after Heroes Reborn? I would have found that helpful.
Infinite Destinies, because of the Nick Fury story, is also post-HR because Nighthawk is looking to 'make a better world'. When I read that I had no idea he was referring back to something specific.

[StrayLamb]

KING IN BLACK
---
Inferno 2 (9:2 - 9:4)-FB
Avengers 45 (16 - 20) [Days after KIB, Blade leaves the Avengers to live in the Vampire Nation, with the full authority of the Avengers and the UN; i’m assuming that Blade can still occasionally join the Avengers for meetings and updates, since he's with the Avengers in Venom 35, months after KIB]

Is there any reason to not have (2-15) here? Only page 1 is a "Yesterday" flashback to "The final battle against Knull". So everything else is explicitly after King In Black.
I'd also then put the last third of Beta Day Bill #1 here (currently trying to work out why Thor, AFTER Knull is beaten, has to come back to Asgard to beat Fin Fang Foom, who's still sporting the Knull spiral).

Added in, along with the rest of Clive Reston's Hellfire Gala Day 8 to Day 19.

So, at least put a note on those Black Cat issues (and Infinite Destinies) that they come after Heroes Reborn? I would have found that helpful.
Infinite Destinies, because of the Nick Fury story, is also post-HR because Nighthawk is looking to 'make a better world'. When I read that I had no idea he was referring back to something specific.

Hoo-boy! Please read:

Our thinking is to have the chronologies up and running as best we can at the moment, to allow people like yourself to use them as a guide for reading the comics in chronological order. They are a work in progress, and are constantly under revision as we read thru the comics and make adjustments.

Please bear in mind that these lists are a work in progress, maintained on a voluntary basis as time and energy allows, by fallible and far from perfect individuals, like me.

Don't make me say it again.

[StrayLamb]

Added in Clive Reston's Hellfire Gala Day 8 to Day 19.

Also added in Avengers 46-54, Winter Guard 1-4 & Venom 35. Additions and alterations in bold.

[Spurs91]

Daredevil vol.7 28 (1 - 10, 18 - 19)-FB
Daredevil vol.7 29 (3 - 7, 11 - 17)-FB

This is down as early after KiB, which seems right enough, but where is FB coming from?
Issue 28 reads as all continuous to me and ends with Matt being poisoned, which leads right into #29.

30 initially seems like it shouldn't be much later, but then has Kingpin talking to Mary and saying she was released from hospital 2 weeks ago, and she was in hospital in #28.

OK, trying to work this out as I post...I see why parts were pushed later to make sense of the 2 weeks, and because Elektra starts demanding cash from criminals and has already been receiving it and using it an issue or 2 later...but it seems like Matt gets called to a meeting with his therapist in the first 7 pages of #28 which then doesn't happen 'til the 2 weeks later(?). And when he does meet her she's reading a newspaper (in their SECOND meeting) where King In Black is still on the front page - at least, that seems like the intention when it's being read as one continuous issue (otherwise I guess it COULD just be another 'Avengers vs Aliens' story).

(Seems like the kind of thing where this was probably already discussed, but I can't find it. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious).

[DotStinks]

Daredevil vol.7 28 (1 - 10, 18 - 19)-FB
Daredevil vol.7 29 (3 - 7, 11 - 17)-FB

This is down as early after KiB, which seems right enough, but where is FB coming from?
Issue 28 reads as all continuous to me and ends with Matt being poisoned, which leads right into #29.

30 initially seems like it shouldn't be much later, but then has Kingpin talking to Mary and saying she was released from hospital 2 weeks ago, and she was in hospital in #28.

OK, trying to work this out as I post...I see why parts were pushed later to make sense of the 2 weeks, and because Elektra starts demanding cash from criminals and has already been receiving it and using it an issue or 2 later...but it seems like Matt gets called to a meeting with his therapist in the first 7 pages of #28 which then doesn't happen 'til the 2 weeks later(?). And when he does meet her she's reading a newspaper (in their SECOND meeting) where King In Black is still on the front page - at least, that seems like the intention when it's being read as one continuous issue (otherwise I guess it COULD just be another 'Avengers vs Aliens' story).

(Seems like the kind of thing where this was probably already discussed, but I can't find it. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious).

Daredevil 33 (1)-FB is "ten weeks ago" and happens between DD 29 & 30 for Fisk and Bullseye, (2 - 3)-FB is "four weeks ago," after DD 30. DD 28-30 is seemingly continuous for Matt and Elektra, but a gap in Daredevil 28 (11 - 17, 20) and the Matt sections in Daredevil 29 (1 - 2, 8 - 10, 18 - 20) makes sense to account for "Ten weeks ago" and "Four weeks ago," and by then some stuff in other books would've occurred. A six week gap has to be forced into DD 28.

[Spurs91]

Is there a thread where that got decided?

[DotStinks]

Is there a thread where that got decided?

I don't think so, but my previous post was my own conclusion.

[Spurs91]

Immortal Hulk 43-47:
The U-Foes are shown training to take on Hulk, having been recruited in #42. So there's a bit of a gap there (42 was very soon before King In Black, if not during). At the end of 43 the Hulk/U-Foes fight begins. U-Foes kill Hulk, he comes back, changed, and defeats them in 46. He's celebrating in a bar when the Avengers turn up. Avengers include Blade (but not Ghost Rider) and bulky She-Hulk, so before Avengers 50.
In 47 She-Hulk saves Hulk from the Avengers and leaves with him.

Immortal Hulk 48 is after a potential small break. Betty leaves Bruce, before next appearing in Defenders. Gamma Flight have already left to appear in their own mini at this point.

49 could also have a small break before it. Hulk and She-Hulk go to the Baxter Building, still being repaired/reconstructed. There they fight the Avengers again before the FF stop it. Human Torch is said to look unable to turn his flame down or off, so after FF...34 (I'm getting to those FF issues soon.
Hulk goes through the Forever Gate, straight into issue 50.

Gamma Flight 1-3 are continuous.
4 refers to "yesterday" and leads straight into 5.

So I'd say maybe (to have the end of this saga be the big concluding issue):

IH 43-47
GF 1-3
IH 48
GF 4-5
IH 49-50

And this should all be quite early in this section. HOWEVER, there's an FF appearance in Iron Man 16-18 where Torch seems normal, so these may need to go after that?

[Spurs91]

Fantastic Four 31: One-off issue. Reed's been waiting to use the Forever Gate for "weeks".

FF 32: The (new) Baxter Building is still under construction. There's a New York exhibition of Latverian artifacts.
The morning after the exhibition, Dr. Doom proposes to Victorious.
Story 2: At night (the night of the exhibition?) Doom tells Reed that he's taking a bride and asks (or demands, after winning a duel) that Reed be his best man.

FF 33: The day before Doom's wedding. Seems like time could have passed after #32.
The Baxter Building is "almost completed".
Then the wedding day, which is on Reed & Sue's anniversary (according to the placement of FF Annual 3, that wedding was in summer, but that probably doesn't match up).
Carries right on into...

FF 34: Doom uses the Armagedron on Johnny, which amplifies his power and leaves him unable to power down.

FF 35: The team arrive back from Latveria at the finished(?) Baxter Building. One part of Nathaniel Richards' message device is detected.
Versions of Kang attack the FF's timeline.
Rama Tut appears during 'Fantastic Four 28' as Thing is being readied to accept the key to NYC for fighting Hulk (but the actual FF 28, volume 1, is the FF/X-Men issue which doesn't have anything like this in it).
Scarlet Centurion interrupts an intervention by the rest of the team about Thing insisting on wearing his helmet after being wounded by Wolverine (supposedly 'Fantastic Four 376', but since the previous historic issue didn't match then I wouldn't expect this one to, either). SC brings in the Thunderbolts from a few months after Onslaught, at a time where they're getting fan mail from the public.
Kang appears, in 'Fantastic Four 606', when the family are about to have a party to celebrate Johnny's return to life.
2.8 minutes after leaving to foil the plot by the Kangs, Reed returns and reveals the message from his father.

FF 36: Still soon after Latveria, as Johnny hasn't eaten since then. Reed makes a containment suit for Johnny, which soon melts (Reed will make another one). Sky goes back home through the Forever Gate.

I suppose Immortal Hulk 49 goes after this, while Johnny is between containment suits (he's wearing one in FF 37), even though the Baxter Building is visibly incomplete in the Hulk issue.

So we've got the Doom"s wedding story before the end of Immortal Hulk before She-Hulk being captured by the Winter Guard then being restored to classic status.

[Spurs91]

My suggestion for how these new bits place together:

FF 31
Gap (possible)
FF 32
Immortal Hulk 43-47
FF 33-35
Gamma Flight 1-3
Immortal Hulk 48
Gamma Flight 4-5
FF 36
Immortal Hulk 49-50


All of these are before Avengers 46, where She-Hulk is captured by the Winter Guard.

The X part of the timeline has Storm mentioning "their respective marriages" to Doom, with a comment that this doesn't work? It WOULD put Doom's wedding (which isn't actually a marriage as Victorious doesn't give her vows) in the first week after King In Black, but that seems just about possible (and maybe even helpful in tying the X parts to the rest). It also seems right that these Immortal Hulk issues go soon after King in Black.

[StrayLamb]

Daredevil vol.7 28 (1 - 10, 18 - 19)-FB
Daredevil vol.7 29 (3 - 7, 11 - 17)-FB

This is down as early after KiB, which seems right enough, but where is FB coming from?
Issue 28 reads as all continuous to me and ends with Matt being poisoned, which leads right into #29.

30 initially seems like it shouldn't be much later, but then has Kingpin talking to Mary and saying she was released from hospital 2 weeks ago, and she was in hospital in #28.

Matt's appearances in DD 28-30 are continuous, but the scenes with Elektra, and the scenes with Kingpin are taking place over a longer period. Since these scenes can't all be happening at the same time, the latest sections are considered to be "now," while the earlier sections become flashbacks.

OK, trying to work this out as I post...I see why parts were pushed later to make sense of the 2 weeks, and because Elektra starts demanding cash from criminals and has already been receiving it and using it an issue or 2 later...but it seems like Matt gets called to a meeting with his therapist in the first 7 pages of #28 which then doesn't happen 'til the 2 weeks later(?). And when he does meet her she's reading a newspaper (in their SECOND meeting) where King In Black is still on the front page - at least, that seems like the intention when it's being read as one continuous issue (otherwise I guess it COULD just be another 'Avengers vs Aliens' story).

(Seems like the kind of thing where this was probably already discussed, but I can't find it. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious).

Daredevil 33 (1)-FB is "ten weeks ago" and happens between DD 29 & 30 for Fisk and Bullseye, (2 - 3)-FB is "four weeks ago," after DD 30. DD 28-30 is seemingly continuous for Matt and Elektra, but a gap in Daredevil 28 (11 - 17, 20) and the Matt sections in Daredevil 29 (1 - 2, 8 - 10, 18 - 20) makes sense to account for "Ten weeks ago" and "Four weeks ago," and by then some stuff in other books would've occurred. A six week gap has to be forced into DD 28.

Dot is correct.

There's a bigger problem, however, which no one has mentioned. Bullseye is working for Kingpin in ASM5 61-65. These issues have to take place after KIB, but in DD7 28-36, he's found in a state of shock after the events of DD7 20, which has to be prior to KIB. Bullseye's appearances in ASM5 61-65 will have to take place prior to DD7 28-36, forcing the early parts of DD7 28-29 to take place even later in the scheme.

We don't deal with how a story "reads," but with how everything fits together in a chronological sequence, and with numerous writers operating within a shared universe, something has to give somewhere.

[StrayLamb]

My suggestion for how these new bits place together:

FF 31
Gap (possible)
FF 32
Immortal Hulk 43-47
FF 33-35
Gamma Flight 1-3
Immortal Hulk 48
Gamma Flight 4-5
FF 36
Immortal Hulk 49-50


All of these are before Avengers 46, where She-Hulk is captured by the Winter Guard.

Good work! Added into main list.

The X part of the timeline has Storm mentioning "their respective marriages" to Doom, with a comment that this doesn't work? It WOULD put Doom's wedding (which isn't actually a marriage as Victorious doesn't give her vows) in the first week after King In Black, but that seems just about possible (and maybe even helpful in tying the X parts to the rest). It also seems right that these Immortal Hulk issues go soon after King in Black.

I've gone with the FF's wedding anniversary for placement. We would need to examine the contingencies involving FF 28, 31 and 35, as well as The Marvels, for this placement.

[Spurs91]

What contingencies?

United States of Captain America 1-5 happens over about 2 weeks (maybe a little less).
It's before Captain America 0. Sam starts off still as Falcon. Issue 2 has a flashback to "Yesterday", July 4th.
Second stories in 1, 3 and 4 are all non-contemporaneous. In #2 it comes some time after the main story, but before #5.

Silk 1-5 (2021) has Silk trying to contact Spidey (Peter) while he's "dealing with galaxy-saving stuff" in #2, and then fighting Shocker in #5.
Cindy is a reporter at Threats & Menaces.

Curse of the Man-Thing: Avengers has dumb/bulky She-Hulk, so before she's taken by the Winter Guard.
CotMT: Spider-Man is Peter still being Spidey. Classic costume Spider-Woman. Lizard talks about "being so long hidden like a dirty secret" in relation to his inhibitor chip.
CotMT: X-Men has the Quiet Council clearly showing Xavier, Magneto, Exodus, Mystique, Sinister, Kate Pryde, Emma Frost, Shaw (I guess - doesn't look like him, but there's nobody else it would be), Storm and Nightcrawler. Empty seats next to Nightcrawler and Xavier (Apocalypse's former seat).

Non-Stop Spider-Man 1-5 - Savage Spider-Man 1-5 is one continuous story. In-story note says before ASM 61. Dr. Strange appears.


Extra question: In the still to be placed section we have "Phoenix Song: Echo 1-5 [She-Hulk is still with the Avengers; Elektra is Daredevil]".
This is (also) still bulky She-Hulk? It looks it from the cover to #1. I guess I'll find out soon...