Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

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robfj
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Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

Post by robfj »

There are several problems here which can be summarised as Marcus Stone's non-Thunderstrike apps don't all align with the rest of the MU, and he drags the rest of the Code Blue team with him.

STONE, LT. MARCUS
----
TSTRK 3
SMU 3
SMU 3/3
SSBL&WP 27
CA 426
CA 428
TSTRK 5
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
TSTRK 8
NW@ 4
TSTRK 11
FFOR 1
NT 15
XFOR 40
M/DF:TSTRK 13/2
M/DF:TSTRK 14/2
M/DF:TSTRK 15/2
M/DF:TSTRK 16/2
FFOR 6
TSTRK 22
TSTRK 23
----

Fistly there is a problem with the position of TSTRK 5-7 here.

Note that for Thunderstrike and others TSTRK 4-7 are a continuous block but #8 is separate. (#4 doesn't involve Code Blue. Neither does the last page of #7 which is attached to #8.)

The core problem is that TSTRK 4-7 and CA 426 contradict each other. On the 1 hand Captain America's chronology has TSTRK 4 before CA 426 because in TSTRK 4 Cap knows that his health is failing but doesn't know why while in CA 426 he's already received the diagnosis (in CA 425) that his Super Soldier serum is killing him. However the Code Blue team members have CA 426 before TSTRK 4-7 because Jock Jackson is alive in CA 426 and he dies in TSTRK 7.

It's actually more complicated than that because other chars are involved too. But 1st of all I'd just like to consider options to resolve the core clash.

We could say Jackson isn't actually present in CA 426, allowing us to switch the issues around for the rest of Code Blue. This isn't an untenable suggestion because there *is* a question over the presence of Jackson and Fireworks Fielstein. The team arrive by helicopter. Only Stone, Mad-Dog Rassitano and Rigger Ruiz get out and do stuff and call each other by name. A 4th guy leans out of the chopper and says something and he looks like Fielstein. A 5th guy seems to be driving the craft and he has a helmet that covers his whole head like Jackson often wears. GCD doesn't list either of those 2 as present. The Fandom Wiki strangely lists Jackson but not Fielstein.

We could pretend that Cap says he *does* know why he's ill in TSTRK 4, allowing us to move TSTRK 4-7 to after CA 426 in his own chronology.

I could suggest an alternative - split TSTRK 4 in 2. Pages 1-6 only have Thunderstrike and Cap in them having a training session. Cap isn't in the rest of the issue or #5-7 and the training session isn't mentioned there. Then #4 could stay where it is for Cap but be after CA 426 for Code Blue. We wouldn't even have to actually document the page break because Thunderstrike himself doesn't have to have any apps in between.

I could even imagine that's how MCP actually sees the situation already, except that other pesky chars get in the way.

For Spider-Man and Mary Jane TSTRK 4-7 are before DD 326. For Nick Fury TSTRK 6-7 are before CA/NF:BT and then DD 326. Dum Dum Dugan agrees about CA/NF:BT. But for Captain America TSTRK 4 then CA/NF:BT then DD 326 are before CA 426.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
----
SSM 208
SSM 208/2
TSTRK 4
TSTRK 5
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
ASM@ 28
ASM 386
ASM 387 (1 - 19)
DD 326
GR3 48
WOSM 109/2
----

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
----
SSM 207-BTS
SSM 208/2
TSTRK 4
TSTRK 5
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
ASM 386
ASM 387
DD 326
WOSM 110
WOSM 111
----

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
----
IH2 410
IH2 411
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
M/CP 157
M/CP 173/2
CA/NF:BT
DD 326
DD 330
IH2 417-BTS
----

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYSIUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"
----
DA 11-FB
X2 26
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
M/CP 173/2
CA/NF:BT
TOS2
CONSPIRACY 2
----

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 370
A 371
TSTRK 4
CA/NF:BT
CA 422
CA 424
CA:DW-FB
CA:DW
CA 425
DD 326
DD 327
DD 328-FB
DD 328
DD 329
DD 331
DD 332
CA 426
IM 302
IM 303-FB
IM 304
----

The most efficient solution would be to change Cap's chronology to put CA/NF:BT and DD 326 after CA 426. This would allow the SM/MJ/NF/DDD apps within TSTRK 4((p7ff)-7(not p22) to also fit between CA 426 and the CA/NF:BT & DD 326 combo without changing those other chars chronology's. TSTRK 4 doesn't have to be moved for Cap because i't only p1-6.

In CA 425 Steve Rogers learns that the Super-Soldier serum is killing him.
DD 326 was published in the same month and an editorial comment mentions the problem but not specifically CA 425.
CA 426 doesn't mention the Daredevil issues. The Code Blue apps in CA 426 are generic. At the end of the issue Rogers is still active in his usual costume as he is in the DD issues.
So it's reasonable to allow CA 426 to be before DD 326.
Similarly CA/NF:BT is a generic Cap app which *could* happen in the early days of Cap's illness.

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 370
A 371
TSTRK 4
CA/NF:BT move from here
CA 422
CA 424
CA:DW-FB
CA:DW
CA 425
CA 426 move to here
CA/NF:BT move to here
DD 326
DD 327
DD 328-FB
DD 328
DD 329
DD 331
DD 332
CA 426 move from here
IM 302
IM 303-FB
IM 304
----

The other 4 chars plus and the Code Blue chronologies remain unchanged.

There are other problems, beginning with the fact that Marcus Stone (but not the rest of Code Blue) also has CA 428 before TSTRK 5-7. But I'll leave those to a continuation post while you digest this thorny issue.
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Re: Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

Post by StrayLamb »

Works for me so far. :thumbsup:
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robfj
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Re: Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

Post by robfj »

STONE, LT. MARCUS
----
TSTRK 3
SMU 3
SMU 3/3
SSBL&WP 27
CA 426
CA 428
TSTRK 5
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
TSTRK 8
NW@ 4
TSTRK 11
FFOR 1
NT 15
XFOR 40
M/DF:TSTRK 13/2
M/DF:TSTRK 14/2
M/DF:TSTRK 15/2
M/DF:TSTRK 16/2
FFOR 6
TSTRK 22
TSTRK 23
----

I've established that Stone correctly has TSTRK 5-7 after CA 426.

In order to check whether CA 428 is in the correct position as well I have to consider TSTRK 8.

THUNDERSTRIKE/ERIC KEVIN MASTERSON
----
TSTRK 7 (1 - 21)
IM 303
IM 304
TSTRK 7 (22)
TSTRK 8
TSTRK 9
IH@ 20/4-FB
A 374
A 375
----

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
CA 426 moved to here
CA/NF:BT moved to here
DD 326-332
IM 302
IM 303-FB
IM 304
IH2 417
IH2 418
IH@ 20/4-FB
CA 427
----

For Thunderstrike himself TSTRK 8 is after IM 304 which for Captain America is after CA 426. But for TS it's also before IH@ 20/4-FB which for Cap is before CA 427. So for Code Blue TSTRK 8 must lie between CA 426 and CA 427.
TSTRK 7 (22) is separated from the rest of #7 and attached to #8, but Code Blue aren't in that page.
But this means that for Marcus Stone his app in CA 428 must follow TSTRK 8. Luckily the rest of Code Blue don't take part in CA 428 so they're unaffected.

STONE, LT. MARCUS
----
TSTRK 3
SMU 3
SMU 3/3
SSBL&WP 27
CA 426
CA 428 move from here
TSTRK 5
TSTRK 6
TSTRK 7
TSTRK 8
CA 428 move to here
NW@ 4
TSTRK 11
FFOR 1
NT 15
XFOR 40
M/DF:TSTRK 13/2
M/DF:TSTRK 14/2
M/DF:TSTRK 15/2
M/DF:TSTRK 16/2
FFOR 6
TSTRK 22
TSTRK 23
----

There remains 1 other chunk to investigate in a 3rd post - the position of the Code Blue Marvel Double Feature 'mini-series'.
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Re: Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

Post by robfj »

Code Blue have their own backup tales in TSTRK 13-16 which we label M/DF:TSTRK 13/2-16/2. I initially expected this to be the most troublesome part of this exploration, but after many false starts it turned out to be much simpler.

Thunderstrike himself appears in #15/2 between his own #11 and #12. The whole set 13/2-16/2 is a continuous story which suggests they all fit between #11 and #12. Some other guest apps don't conflict with this:- Jarvis in #14/2 is between #10 and #13 and Thor in the same issue lies between FFU 9 (for him also later than #10) and his own #480 (for him earlier than #15). A spreadsheet I created of various chars' apps in this whole period (between Infinity Crusade and DC vs Marvel) showed no wider problems with the positioning of these particular chars and issues.

There remained 2 potential problems.
1) Marcus Stone and some of the other Code Blue have FFOR 1, NT 15 and XFOR 40 between TSTRK 11 and M/DF:TSTRK 13/2.
2) There's a disagreement between 2 guest chars in M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 leading to a chronology loop.

1)
At 1st sight my spreadsheet suggested that FFOR 1, NT 15 and XFOR 40 made the Code Blue 'mini-series' much later. But a few 'sliding block' moves made this 'problem' disappear.
Ie during this period the various families of titles (Avengers, X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and local to this period New Warriors and Midnight Sons) spend most of their time not interacting with each other, so whole blocks of issues for a family can be slid up and down in time (and maybe condensed) relative to others without breaking any bonds.
(The situation for NT 15 would have been more confused if not impossible if I hadn't removed the time loop in my Night Thrasher #15 thread. It's all part of a cunning masterplan! :twisted:)

2)
This problem is real. M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 has 2 guest-stars Hercules and Daredevil.
Herc's app lies between TSTRK 11 and A 378 which is compatible with the earlier guest-stars.
But the Daredevil app is part of a time loop.
Daredevil has #16/2 after EL:ROE 1 which for Nick Fury is after TOS2 which for Captain America is after A 378 which for Hercules is after #16/2.

DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
----
DD 326-332
SMU 6
SSBL&WP 30
DD 333-337
EL:ROE 1-4
SSM 218
ASM 396
SSM 219
M/DF:TSTRK 16/2
DD 338-342
----

Daredevil's #16/2 app is generic for that period. Ie he's wearing the armoured costume and pretending that Matt Murdock is dead. That situation lasted through his #320-345 which covers the whole period in question. #16/2 has been placed between his #337 and #338, but it would also fit earlier, by my spreadsheet between his #332 and #333.

To break the chronology loop we have to move M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 to before EL:ROE 1.

Captain America is in the whole of DD 326-332 which for him is before his own #428 which for Marcus Stone precedes TSTRK 10. And also for Cap it's before A@ 23 which Hercules and Thunderstrike have before TSTRK 11. So that whole DD run precedes the M/DF:TSTRK set. For Thunderstrike SMU 6 is also before TSTRK 11.

So now the target area is narrowed to between SMU 6 and EL:ROE 1, in the region containing SSBL&WP 30 and DD 333-337.

The chars in DD 333-337, even Kingpin, are all DD regulars who have befores and afters in issues that also have DD in them, which is no help pinning down these issues in the wider context. Except that help comes from an unlikely source - Blackwulf.

BLACKWULF II/LUCIAN
BWULF 9-FB
{TSTRK 6}
BWULF 1
BWULF 2
BWULF 3-FB
BWULF 3
BWULF 4
BWULF 5
BWULF 6
DD 334
DD 336
DD 337
BWULF 7
BWULF 8
BWULF 9
BWULF 10

Blackwulf was the star of his own short-lived series whose career is completely laid out above. And his only major foray into the rest of the MU was in the DD run under consideration. That in itself wouldn't have been of any help if it wasn't for a guest visit by Giant-Man.

GIANT-MAN/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
----
TSTRK 10
TTA3
A 378
A 382/2
TSTRK 16
M/DF:A 379/2 (1 - 6)-FB
M/DF:A 379/2
M/DF:A 380/2
M/DF:A 381/2 (1 - 10)
M/DF:A 381/2 (12:1)-FB
M/DF:A 381/2 (11 - 22)
M/DF:A 382/3
FW 8
A 383
BWULF 5
BWULF 6
CA 434
----

He has BWULF 5-6 after TSTRK 16 which is obviously after the TSTRK issues #12-15 which Jarvis, Thor and Thunderstrike between them position after M/DF:TSTRK 14/2-15/2. And he has the BWULF issues after A 378 which for Hercules is after M/DF:TSTRK 16/2. So Daredevil's app in M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 must also fall before BWULF 5-6. Which from Black Wulf's chronology makes it also before DD 333-337.

That restricts M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 in Daredevil's chronology to between SMU 6 and DD 333. Ie we only have a choice of which side of SSBL&WP 30 to position it.

For DD SSBL&WP 30 is a just a generic 1-panel cameo. Other similar cameos put the issue in the vicinity of the M/DF:TSTRK set but none determine whether it's before or after it. So I have a free choice. I'm going to put M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 after SSBL&WP 30 for aesthetic reasons. Keeping SSBL&WP 30 as early as possible helps me keep my spreadsheet well-balanced. Or to put it another way it probably makes life easier for those maintaining the overall chronologies.

So my amendment here is

DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
----
DD 326-332
SMU 6
SSBL&WP 30
M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 move to here
DD 333-337
EL:ROE 1-4
SSM 218
ASM 396
SSM 219
M/DF:TSTRK 16/2 move from here
DD 338-342
----


The overall result of this investigation is 2 changes to Captain America in part 1, 1 to Marcus Stone in part 2 and 1 to Daredevil here.

So it turns out I was being too harsh on Stone and Code Blue at the beginning. Stone only had 1 issue out of place and the rest of Code Blue weren't affected at all.
robfj
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Re: Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

Post by robfj »

I'm baaack!

I've found another time loop involving Code Blue

Code Blue have SSBL&WP 27 before CA 426
Captain America has CA 426 before DD 326-332
Silver Sable has DD 328 before SSBL&WP 27

As noted earlier the middle link isn't confined to Cap. Code Blue have to have CA 426 before TSTRK 5-7, and Spider-Man, Mary Jane and Nick Fury all have TSTRK 5-7 before DD 326.

The only question is where does SSBL&WP 27 really fit? Because Code Blue include Jock Jackson in SSBL&WP 27 then it has to be before he dies in TSTRK 5-7. Therefore we need to move it in Silver's chronology to before DD 328.

SILVER SABLE II/SILVIJA "SILVER" SABLINOVIA
----
SSBL&WP 23
SSBL&WP 24
SSBL&WP 25
DD 328
SSBL&WP 26
SSBL&WP 27
SSBL&WP 28
SSBL&WP 29
SSBL&WP 30
----

#26-28 are all stand-alone issues so there is no problem moving #26-27 before DD 328. And DD 328 doesn't provide any clues to where it should fit in Silver's chronology.

SILVER SABLE II/SILVIJA "SILVER" SABLINOVIA
----
SSBL&WP 23
SSBL&WP 24
SSBL&WP 25
DD 328 move from here
SSBL&WP 26
SSBL&WP 27
DD 328 move to here
SSBL&WP 28
SSBL&WP 29
SSBL&WP 30
----

This will allow SSBL&WP 27 to be remain before CA 426 for Code Blue.

Wild Pack members Doug Powell, Crippler, Battlestar, Larry Arnold and Amy Chen appear in DD 328 with Silver Sable. Crippler isn't in #26 or #27, but the rest need amending.

ARNOLD, LARRY
----
SSBL&WP 24
SSBL&WP 25
DD 328 move from here
SSBL&WP 26
DD 328 move to here
SSBL&WP 28
SSBL&WP 29
----

BATTLESTAR/LEMAR HOSKINS
----
SSBL&WP 24
SSBL&WP 25
DD 328 move from here
SSBL&WP 26
SSBL&WP 27
DD 328 move to here
SSBL&WP 29
SSBL&WP 30
----

CHEN, AMY
----
SSBL&WP 24
SSBL&WP 25
DD 328 move from here
SSBL&WP 26
DD 328 move to here
SSBL&WP 28
SSBL&WP 29
SSBL&WP 30
----

POWELL, DOUG
----
SSBL&WP 24
SSBL&WP 25
DD 328 move from here
SSBL&WP 26
DD 328 move to here
SSBL&WP 29
SSBL&WP 30
----

Foggy Nelson guests in #23 and #28 with DD 328 in between, but this isn't affected by the shift in DD 328's position.


I don't think this chronology loop was caused by my change in Caps' chronology in the 1st post in this thread, because the contributions by Code Blue and others were still there. In effect DD 328's position in the Wild Pack's chronology agreed with Cap's old position for CA 426 and disagreed with the other chars' version.


I seem to have stumbled into a minefield between Infinity Crusade and DC vs Marvel which has generated my last 3 threads. I've got 2 more in the queue, and every time I investigate 1 I tend to notice another in passing.
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Re: Code Blue in the Thunderstrike period

Post by StrayLamb »

That all seems to work. :thumbsup:
robfj wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:11 amI seem to have stumbled into a minefield between Infinity Crusade and DC vs Marvel which has generated my last 3 threads. I've got 2 more in the queue, and every time I investigate 1 I tend to notice another in passing.
That happens to me nearly every time i look into something from the '90's as well. :willynilly:
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