Proposed Changes to Nightmare's Chronology

[NexusOfNightmares]

This is my first time doing one of these posts, so I apologize if I'm not writing this correctly.

I was reading Nightmare's entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #8, the latest and most accurate account of Nightmare's history officially published in a Handbook that doesn't include the DK stuff.

Here's some notes I made while noticing their placements of events:

• Incredible Hulk #360 is put after Ghost Rider (Vol. 3) #11 despite being published before.

• Nightmare's encounter with Deathlok in DLOK2 9 and DLOK2 10 is put before the first meeting of the Fear Lords in Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #31.

• Thor 451 and 452 are put before his encounter with Wolverine and Venom in MCP 117-122.

• Over The Edge #7 is put just after the Club Fear story arc even though it was published after Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #79.

• Marvel Knights 8-9 are put before the events of Magik.

• Defenders is put before Nightcrawler.

• Nightmare's encounter with Whistle Pig and Doc Samson in the second story of Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #5 was said to have occurred at some undisclosed point before the beginning of his invasion of Earth in Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #4. While the Handbook never said exactly when the encounter took place, certain continuity clues can give a good estimation. In Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #1, Doc Samson first encountered the Whistle Pig and was able to restrain him. He was then taken to Samson's New York headquarters to be healed, eventually becoming an ally of the Doctor, such as in Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #2. The Whistle Pig along with the Doc and a few others had traveled to Vegas by the start of Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #4, which led to their battle with Nightmare's demons during his invasion. With all this in mind, this encounter should take place sometime after Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #1 but before Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #4.

• Wolverine, Ghost Rider, and Doom all faced Nightmare together in Marvel Comics Presents 100. This event is specifically stated to have happened before Wolverine and Venom would face Nightmare in M/CP 117, who was attempting to merge his realm with reality at that time. Interestingly, the Handbook puts all the events in one place, specifically stating that Nightmare began to torment Wolverine with dreams in an attempt to merge reality with the Dream Dimension. This actually first occurred in M/CP 99, with Nightmare saying at the end of Wolverine's nightmare that this was just the beginning of his plan, which was later revealed in M/CP 117 to have been occurring for several times now, later revealed to be Nightmare attempting to merge his realm with reality. As such, I thought of that as meaning M/CP 99 took place after M/CP 100 for that specific story and before M/CP 117.

I'm not going to list my proposed edits because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong right now.

[StrayLamb]

Hi Nexus, and welcome to the MCP boards!

Rest assured, this is a suitable topic for discussion, and there's nothing wrong with your presentation.

The Handbooks tend to give a concise rendering of a character's activities, rather than a strictly chronological one.

With so many character interactions in Marvel Comics, no single character can be independently revised, so before we can make these kinds of changes to a character's existing chronology, we would need to consider the potential ramifications and conflicts of making such moves, even if this is how Nightmare's chronology is presented in the Handbook.

For instance, the MCP lists Nightmare's appearance in IH2 360 sometime prior to GR3 11. Before taking the Handbook's position that this occurs after GR3 11, a check would need to be made to ensure there's nothing conflicting with that change in any of the characters who appear in those issues, or in story elements. Also, i wouldn't place M/CP 99 after M/CP 100 just because the Handbook seems to suggest it. The flow of the story from issue 99 to 100 seems to follow from one to the other.

That's not to say that Nightmare's chronology isn't possibly in need of revision, and the Handbook's placement is a good starting point, but don't accept it as gospel without digging deeper and checking against the other character chronologies, as well as reading thru all of the relevant issues. Be prepared for potential late nights and headaches.

[NexusOfNightmares]

Hey! Thanks for the quick response. I posted this because all the stories were written in seclusion of each other. After doing months of research, I have never been able to find any evidence against the Handbook's odd placement.

[StrayLamb]

Hey! Thanks for the quick response. I posted this because all the stories were written in seclusion of each other. After doing months of research, I have never been able to find any evidence against the Handbook's odd placement.

I had a quick look at the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z (2008) #8 entry. As you say, it's quite detailed and specific in its placements of Nightmare's chronology. Since you've done the research, perhaps you could present some of that to confirm that the Handbook's placements won't upset other characters chronologies, or to let us know if it does, so we can make a work around. Let us know which books and characters you've examined, as well as any that you haven't.

For instance, the MCP lists..
---
AF 67
AF 70
IH2 360
M/FAN 51/2
XCAL 29-FB-BTS
XCAL 29
M/CP 79/4
GR3 11
M/CP 90/4
DSSS 31/2
DSSS 32/2
DSSS 33/2
---

The Handbook wants to place IH2 360 after GR3 11, so we need to know how that affects the placement of the issues and characters listed between those issues.

[Russ Chappell]

After doing months of research, I have never been able to find any evidence against the Handbook's odd placement.

and yet...

I'm not going to list my proposed edits because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong right now.

I want to encourage you to share your research with us. Don't be afraid of being wrong. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. No one will laugh at you, or make fun of you. They may question you, and doubt you, and disagree with you, but that's to be expected, with any form of research. If you're right, you can improve the Project.

But pay heed to what Nick is saying. We don't just check the stories that are mentioned in your post. Sometimes we have to check all the stories in between the stories, and follow characters that don't appear in those stories. I would suggest ample amounts of Alka Seltzer.

And thanks for contributing.

[NexusOfNightmares]

After doing months of research, I have never been able to find any evidence against the Handbook's odd placement.

and yet...

I'm not going to list my proposed edits because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong right now.

I want to encourage you to share your research with us. Don't be afraid of being wrong. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. No one will laugh at you, or make fun of you. They may question you, and doubt you, and disagree with you, but that's to be expected, with any form of research. If you're right, you can improve the Project.

But pay heed to what Nick is saying. We don't just check the stories that are mentioned in your post. Sometimes we have to check all the stories in between the stories, and follow characters that don't appear in those stories. I would suggest ample amounts of Alka Seltzer.

And thanks for contributing.

Hey! Thanks for the quick response. I posted this because all the stories were written in seclusion of each other. After doing months of research, I have never been able to find any evidence against the Handbook's odd placement.

I had a quick look at the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z (2008) #8 entry. As you say, it's quite detailed and specific in its placements of Nightmare's chronology. Since you've done the research, perhaps you could present some of that to confirm that the Handbook's placements won't upset other characters chronologies, or to let us know if it does, so we can make a work around. Let us know which books and characters you've examined, as well as any that you haven't.

For instance, the MCP lists..
---
AF 67
AF 70
IH2 360
M/FAN 51/2
XCAL 29-FB-BTS
XCAL 29
M/CP 79/4
GR3 11
M/CP 90/4
DSSS 31/2
DSSS 32/2
DSSS 33/2
---

The Handbook wants to place IH2 360 after GR3 11, so we need to know how that affects the placement of the issues and characters listed between those issues.

Hey! I was originally busy today and going to hold off on this, but I saw that one of the owners of the project had paid attention to this, so I knew I couldn't turn down the challenge.

The thing to understand about Nightmare is that he's basically a C-tier comic character. His sole goal in Marvel comics is to mess around with other heroes for an issue or two before disappearing. Mephisto said it best in Journey Into Mystery 627 that Nightmare is a mosquito who sucks on humanity's naps and can only give people like Doctor Strange a challenge.

I've read decades of comics about Nightmare, and that's the way he always has been, and that's the way he always will be. Any time I see that Marvel tried to make an actual sustained profile for Nightmare such as the Club Fear arc or Nightmare Island or the early days against Strange or briefly his rivalry with Hercules in the earl 2010s before Chaos War, it's always removed and whisked away and forgotten about.

Especially since most of the Handbook's proposed changes happen in the late 1900s to early 2000s, literally the era where Nightmare was just being used by Marvel comics as a villain who was fighting random superheroes for an issue or two. This would change a bit after the Tempus Fugit arc in Incredible Hulk vol 2 (I will one day contribute a post about that) and into Chaos War and Journey Into Mystery.

Despite what seems like a C-tier Marvel character to most people, it was always something special to me. There was a time in senior year of high school when the coursework was light that I would spend dozens of hours per week reading about Nightmare. I even wrote about him on the Marvel Database until the corrupt admins kicked me out.

The point I'm trying to make is that Nightmare is a minor character in Marvel comics who has a long history that Marvel doesn't care about. The Handbook's placements are really minor and would only shift his history maybe one or two issues different. For example, IH2 360 was made in 1989, but Ghost Rider was published in 1991. To put it after wouldn't make any real difference in the comics.

Now I'm going to write about the chronology. The wording of this post will become a bit jumping over the place because that's just how I think when there's a large amount of text:

To start with the most obvious one, putting DOCSAM2 5/2 before DOCSAM2 5 would do literally nothing to the chronologies of those affected. Literally only three Marvel Chronology Project appear in the second issue, which are Nightmare, Doc Samson, and the Whistle Pig. The search button also confirms this.

In DOCSAM2 5/2, it's just a short story about how a little girl visits the doctor because of a nightmare she's having every night (literally due to the demon itself). The doctor and the Whistle Pig manage to remove her nightmares at the end. The story is also implied to take place sometime DOCSAM 5 before due to Doc Samson already knowing and being acquainted with Nightmare. Also, at the end of DOCSAM 5, Nightmare is banished

The Whistle Pig is a character that only appears in the DOCSAM2 series before never showing up again. An important part of the story to note is that the second part of the story takes place in Doc Samson's original office, so it has to be before DOCSAM 4, where the crew traveled to Vegas.

Also, in general, the stories in the /2 parts of the comic are always meant to be taken before the /1 parts. That's why DOCSAM 2 4/2 is put before DOCSAM 2 4

The change for Nightmare would be easy:
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5

The harder edit would be putting DOCSAM 5/2 after DOCSAM2 1, 2. The Living Totem doesn't appear in DOCSAM2 3. I'd personally put it after DOCSAM 2 4/2, because one the /2 stories are clearly meant to take place within succession of each other. Two, in that story, it's shown that the Whistle Pig had just received a shipment of pueblo artifacts, which could possibly explain the Dream Snatcher shown in DOCSAM 5/2. Again, it doesn't matter, but that's where I would put it. Again, DOCSAM 5/2 has to take place before DOCSAM 4 because DOCSAM 5/2 still takes place in their New York offices.

Here's our current chronology of the WHISTLE PIG
LIVING TOTEM II/WHISTLE PIG
DOCSAM2 1-FB
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 4/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5
DOCSAM2 5/2

I'd change it to:
LIVING TOTEM II/WHISTLE PIG
DOCSAM2 1-FB
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 4/2
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5

DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON (born SKIVORSKI)
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 3
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5

Note: The Unofficial Appendix's master list has a different order than any of us. This is their order: (app, AZU#2)--Doc Samson II#1 (1 (fb), [1 (fb)], 1-5, 4/2, 5/2.

I don't know what an AZU #2 is, but I thought it meant All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z: Update Vol 1 2. I checked that Handbook, and it does have a entry on the Living Totem but no appendix in the back, at least from what I've seen. If I'm wrong, let me know.

I will split each of my proposals into different posts.

[NexusOfNightmares]

For further proof that editing the chronology of DOCSAM2 5/2 would do anything, me, the MCP, and the Appendix all have different placements of events, yet it changes nothing.

The next change I would propose is the movement of Over The Edge #7 to being just after Club Fear, which is Nightmare 1-4.

Now here is where we get to the Club Fear story arc. Club Fear is specifically introduced in Nightmare #1-4 as a place where Nightmare leaves the Dream Dimension to take over and become mortal. However, like how Marvel usually treats Nightmare, it's forgotten about after a few years. The exact specifics and circumstances of when Nightmare left Club Fear are unknown. Club Fear was last shown in Over the Edge #7, with Nightmare still shown running it. It was last mentioned in Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #79, where he said that he still controlled his realm through Club Fear. The first known source for him eventually leaving the club is in Nightmare's profile in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Horror 2005 #1, where it stated that he was a former nightclub owner. A profile on the Unofficial Appendix also makes note of this: "Roxanne wasn't seen since Over the Edge#7 because Nightmare returned to his realm and to his old ways of evil."

I know that this project doesn't record magazines, but Marvel Swimsuit Special would have occurred right after the events of Nightmare the comic. In particular, both Nightmare and Roxanne were shown in Marvel Swimsuit Special issue two.

In Nightmare's entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #8, it said that Nightmare was "alone again" when retelling the events of of Over the Edge #7, implying that he was no longer with Roxanne at this time.

Over the Edge #7 shows a Roxanne who appears significantly older than before

Here's what I wrote as my summary of Sorcerer Supreme #79 when I was writing it:
Alone again, Nightmare grew tired of his life and sought to die at the hands of Doctor Strange, with Sister Nil or Strange appointed as the new ruler of the Nightmare World. Nightmare nearly succeeded, but Doctor Strange refused to end Nightmare's life. Nightmare swore revenge before sending Nil and Strange back to Earth.

And why would Nightmare be bored of his life? Maybe because he's no longer with Roxanne again.

Also, Nightmare is said to be in control of his realm again in #79. From Nightmare #4, he gave control of his realm to his dog-headed servant Doggerel. From what we know, he didn't go back into his realm until the events of Over the Edge #7, where he killed Doggerel for his failure to stop the Hanon Tramps. Now why would Nightmare be in control of his realm again, probably because he no longer has Doggerel to do it for him once more.

So from Nightmare #4, Swimsuit Special, and into Over the Edge #7, Doggerel was in control of his realm.

Honestly, I commend the Handbook for making this small swap.

Their are only two characters who this swap would affect. For Nightmare, it's simple:
NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
NMARE 1
NMARE 2
NMARE 3
NMARE 4
OEDGE 7
DSSS 79

For Doctor Strange, it gets much harder. Here's our current placement of Doctor Strange:
MORB:LV 29
DSSS 70
DSSS 71
DSSS 72
DSSS 73
DSSS 74
DSSS 75
DSSS 76
DSSS 77
DSSS 78
DSSS 79
DSSS 80
DSSS 81
DSSS 82
DSSS 83
OEDGE 7
DSSS 84
DSSS 85
DSSS 86
DSSS 87
DSSS 88
DSSS 89
DCV.M/ 1
DCV.M/ 2-BTS
DCV.M/ 3-BTS
DCV.M/ 4-BTS
OEDGE 2

Strange's master list on the Appendix seems to agree with me: MCP#101/3-106/3 103/4 Over the Edge#2, Uncanny X-Men#329,330, Doc III#90, OvEdge7, Doom2099#40,42, Strange Tales III#1(fb)

But it's so radically different from our placement, noticeably them putting Over the Edge #2 before #7 that I can't speak on this issue due to a lack of knowledge unfortunately. I guess that's what I get for being a Nightmare specialist only. I can't speak on Doctor Strange, but if a Strange expert wants to come here and help sort it, that'd be greatly appreciated.

Note: this appearance is so insignificant on Strange's profile on the handbooks that it has never appeared in one so far, though I could be mistaken. What is a major appearance for Nightmare is nothing for a character like Doctor Strange.

Also, Nightmare's master list on the Unofficial Appendix disagrees with me here, but it also does agree with some of my other proposed changes later. So I don't know about that one.

Also, I literally just noticed that our entry for Doggerel is just one comic, so I wrote a correct one.
DOGGEREL
NMARE 1
NMARE 2
NMARE 3
NMARE 4
OEDGE 7

[NexusOfNightmares]

The next occurrence is the M/CP 100. I'm going to first start this with M/CP 99.

M/CP 99 begins with Wolverine facing Nightmare in a dream. Wolverine wonders if this is a result of tampering his mind went through. A footnote makes note of this tampering occurring in M/CP 72-84, so it must be after there.

Wolverine is no longer with Mariko at this time, per the comic. The comic ends with "Next issue: more Wolverine as he teams up with Ghost Rider and Doctor Doom against Nightmare!"

Page 22 on my scan says that Wolverine already knows who Nightmare is. This could be a reference to M/CP 99, but it's vague enough to suggest otherwise. Finally, the comic ends with Nightmare saying he'll now use illusions of Ghost Rider and Wolverine to haunt Doom's dreams again.

From what I've said, it seems somewhat vague that M/CP 99 occurs before M/CP 100. However, it's not specifically stated anywhere that this has to be the case.

Now the argument against (all of this comes from Nightmare's entry):
"Dr. Doom sought to end his own nightmares and caught Ghost Rider (Dan Ketch) and Wolverine (Logan/James Howlett) to aid him in Nightmare's destruction, but this scheme only enraged Nightmare and Doom's unwilling allies...

A short struggle with the Asgardians Amora the Enchantress and Heimdall ended when Enchantress overcame her fear of losing her beauty. Nightmare planned to merge his realm with reality once again and tormented Wolverine with nightmares until he asked the telepathic Professor Xavier for help."

The Handbook specifically puts Nightmare's encounter with Wolverine and Venom after Thor 451 and 452, which I'll also touch on. In particular, it begins with how Nightmare planned to merge his realm with reality. As stated above, this took place in 99 and was revealed towards the end.

So it's a bit of a take it or leave it, but I'd argue that we should make the change.

Note: Nightmare's entry on the Unofficial Master List disagrees with me here.

NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
M/CP 100
M/CP 100/2
M/CP 100/3
M/CP 100/4
M/CP 99
M/CP 117-BTS

Following my line of thinking, both me and the MCP agree that this occurs after GR3 30. I'm not going to comment on Wolverine for I know almost nothing about him. The Asgardians this time were still under the reign of Karnilla, so this doesn't create a contradiction there, and we both agree that it has to happen before Morbius.

Wolverine was still living with Professor X at this time as shown in M/CP 117.

Note: The Unofficial Appendix's master list agrees with me here.

This thing I found on the top of the forums agrees with me: http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... 965#p57965

They also put Thor 451-455 before Venom and Wolverine versus Nightmare.

NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
T 451/2
T 452/2
M/CP 117-BTS
M/CP 118
M/CP 119
M/CP 120-BTS
M/CP 121
M/CP 122

[NexusOfNightmares]

If I didn't explain M/CP 99 clear, it doesn't affect continuity at all due to it being a dream between Wolverine and Nightmare. Since Wolverine was still living with Professor X at this time, it doesn't affect continuity. Need someone to find out how this would change Wolverine's continuity.

Also, I made a mistake above. I actually meant that Defenders Vol 3 takes place after Nightcrawler. For this one, I'm actually not certain. I need someone to check this and make sure if it's true or not. I just did some more research - took a break - and found that this might not be true. Need someone to do more research on this. Nightmare's master list on the Appendix supports this.

The placement of Marvel Knights 8-9 after Magik doesn't contradict our Index of Chronologies, let me know if I'm wrong.

Incredible Hulk 360 is a dream but wouldn't change much since Hulk is still dead then. It probably messes with a lot of other characters (need someone to check on that)

It's revealed that Betty had a miscarriage. They let meet again in Incredible Hulk #372.

M/FAN 51/2 and M/CP 79/4 shouldn't contradict anything. XCAL 29 might cause some problems but probably not since they were still in Britain at this time.

Moving up GR3 11 shouldn't cause only issues since, you know, the story is dream, and Betty still had her miscarriage the same way. It took almost 15 issues for Hulk to meet up with Betty again. Let me know if I'm wrong. Betty should have been staying at the hospital the entire time regardless.

Nightmare's master list on the Appendix supports moving up GR3 11.

Nightmare's encounter with Deathlok in DLOK2 9 and DLOK2 10 is put before the first meeting of the Fear Lords in Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #31. This is the one I'm least confident about, but I haven't been able to find any information to contradict it. I'm not going to list my proposed changes on this post because it's becoming too speculative.

But this is why I was so unsure about making a post or listing my changes, I just don't know enough about other characters besides Nightmare. I hope all of this information is at least taken in mind.

I'm going outside now. I don't know how you all manage to do this for long period of time. I hope some of this was helpful.

[NexusOfNightmares]

If this is still being discussed, can we at least merge my Doggerel request?
DOGGEREL
NMARE 1
NMARE 2
NMARE 3
NMARE 4
OEDGE 7

[StrayLamb]

I'm going outside now. I don't know how you all manage to do this for long period of time. I hope some of this was helpful.

I find a combination of Excedrin, consumption of alcohol, and occasional bouts of screaming and hair-pulling are quite helpful. All contributions are welcome.

[Col_Fury]

[NexusOfNightmares]

So would it be possible to merge my Doggerel request at least, while I'm waiting for the changes to Nightmare's chronology. I asked loki, and he talked to the writer of the original Handbook entry. I'm waiting for his response when loki comes back online (hasn't been spotted in over a month).

Here's Doggerel's entry from the Appendox for further proof:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/doggerelnightmare.htm

[NexusOfNightmares]

This will probably be my last posts on this thread since no one is reading it and my proposed changes will probably not get merged.

[NexusOfNightmares]

Proposed changes to Doggerel's entry:
DOGGEREL
NMARE 1 <— ADD
NMARE 2 <— ADD
NMARE 3 <— ADD
NMARE 4 <— ADD
OEDGE 7

Source: https://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dogg ... htmare.htm