Proposed Changes to Nightmare's Chronology

[Midnighter]

This will probably be my last posts on this thread since no one is reading it and my proposed changes will probably not get merged.

If no one responds it means there are no corrections to be made and the proposals are fine.
They will be integrated soon, updates are not done in real time but are done in bulk every now and then.

[NexusOfNightmares]

This will probably be my last posts on this thread since no one is reading it and my proposed changes will probably not get merged.

If no one responds it means there are no corrections to be made and the proposals are fine.
They will be integrated soon, updates are not done in real time but are done in bulk every now and then.

I thought check marks are used to indicate that the proposal is accepted. Also, I wrote a full proposal on Doggerel. I'll write a full list of the Nightmare changes from what the Handbook writer told me after I'm done with some college work.

[Russ Chappell]

This will probably be my last posts on this thread since no one is reading it

This thread has been read over 1300 times.

Perhaps you mean that no one is responding to it. That's usually a good thing.

I thought check marks are used to indicate that the proposal is accepted.

The checkmark is added after the proposed changes are added to the listings. CAUTION, THOUGH: That does NOT mean that the edit immediately appears on the site. It means the edit will appear with the next update.

You must show extreme patience. We are INTENTIONALLY very slow to make changes to the listings, unless there's a bug in the html or php coding.

[NexusOfNightmares]

This will probably be my last posts on this thread since no one is reading it

This thread has been read over 1300 times.

Perhaps you mean that no one is responding to it. That's usually a good thing.

I thought check marks are used to indicate that the proposal is accepted.

The checkmark is added after the proposed changes are added to the listings. CAUTION, THOUGH: That does NOT mean that the edit immediately appears on the site. It means the edit will appear with the next update.

You must show extreme patience. We are INTENTIONALLY very slow to make changes to the listings, unless there's a bug in the html or php coding.

Got it and sorry about that.

[NexusOfNightmares]

Also this:
Here's our current chronology of the WHISTLE PIG
LIVING TOTEM II/WHISTLE PIG
DOCSAM2 1-FB
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 4/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5
DOCSAM2 5/2

I'd change it to:
LIVING TOTEM II/WHISTLE PIG
DOCSAM2 1-FB
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 4/2
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5

DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON (born SKIVORSKI)
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 3
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5

[NexusOfNightmares]

Sorry for reviving this dead thread, but I'd also like to make the case for the removal of DS2 65-FB from his master list. This will only affect him since it is a flashback.

Going through the old chat logs from the MCP, I perfectly understand the reasoning why this was added:

Thread 7

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 12:15 pm Post subject: Nightmare Chronology Addition
By Scathach80

Nightmare has a one-panel flashback in Doctor Strange II#65.
A man named Havelock reveals that twelve years before the time of the present portion of the story he washed up on one of the Sunda islands. There he encountered an old woman. During the night, the old woman had to fight off Nightmare, overlord of the Dream dimension. This occurs on pages 10-11.

That being said, what actually happened in Havelock's recollection was that the old woman had a nightmare. When telling the story to Strange, the doctor theorizes that it was Nightmare in disguise. "'Caught up in a nightmare', indeed! She must have been warding off an attack by the overlord of the Dream Dimension, NIGHTMARE himself!"

This was never explicitly confirmed to be Nightmare. Furthermore, Nightmare's entry in the Official Handbook, while not proof of anything, never mentions this encounter either.

Also, Nightmare needs to be added as one of the demons from Pluto's flashback in CHMPS 2. This will also not affect any of the other characters since Demon of the Mask, Mephisto, and Marduk Kurios are already in the index. I'm not sure why Nightmare wasn't originally added. Maybe it's his weird design.

There appear to be a few more other demons, but we can only see their hands, so it's likely impossible to tell.

We know from the passing of time that Champions 2 takes place during autumn. Doctor Strange Vol 2 10 takes place sometime in early New Year. Mystic Hands of Doctor Strange takes place some time earlier, as also indicated by the weather and natural passing of time.

So in addition (unlike my changes above), these are relatively easy to add:
AF 67-FB
SENSM -1
DS2 65-FB <-- REMOVE
A:I 30-FB

M/PRM 3
MHDS /2-BTS
CHMPS 2-FB <-- ADD
DS2 10
DS2 11-BTS

[Michael]

That being said, what actually happened in Havelock's recollection was that the old woman had a nightmare. When telling the story to Strange, the doctor theorizes that it was Nightmare in disguise. "'Caught up in a nightmare', indeed! She must have been warding off an attack by the overlord of the Dream Dimension, NIGHTMARE himself!"

This was never explicitly confirmed to be Nightmare. Furthermore, Nightmare's entry in the Official Handbook, while not proof of anything, never mentions this encounter either.

The art in the accompanying panel clearly shows her attacker to be Nightmare.

Also, Nightmare needs to be added as one of the demons from Pluto's flashback in CHMPS 2. This will also not affect any of the other characters since Demon of the Mask, Mephisto, and Marduk Kurios are already in the index. I'm not sure why Nightmare wasn't originally added. Maybe it's his weird design.

The problem is that Pluto describes his allies as rulers of dimensions of the dead. Nightmare ISN'T a ruler of a dimension of the dead.

[NexusOfNightmares]

The art in the accompanying panel clearly shows her attacker to be Nightmare.

I disagree (that could be an unnamed demon since it's not confirmed) but fine.

The problem is that Pluto describes his allies as rulers of dimensions of the dead. Nightmare ISN'T a ruler of a dimension of the dead.

I had a whole paragraph written about how some of the other demons aren't also rulers of the dead, but I think the actual explanation is a lot simpler: that is very clearly Nightmare, and Pluto probably made a mistake. Also, if you want to get technical, Nightmare owns some of the souls of those who died while dreaming, though I'd prefer to not go down that road.

[NexusOfNightmares]

[Removed]

[NexusOfNightmares]

Hey, I've finished talking with the Handbook writer. This first post is just going to be for the entries I wrote for other characters

Proposed changes to Doggerel's entry:
DOGGEREL
NMARE 1 <— ADD
NMARE 2 <— ADD
NMARE 3 <— ADD
NMARE 4 <— ADD
OEDGE 7
Source: https://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dogg ... htmare.htm

LIVING TOTEM II/WHISTLE PIG
DOCSAM2 1-FB
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 4/2
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5

DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON (born SKIVORSKI)
DOCSAM2 1
DOCSAM2 2
DOCSAM2 3
DOCSAM2 5/2
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5
See an earlier post (#69680) for the explanation on why.

(I didn't realize until now that since Dreamstalker is Nightmare's horse, they share some appearances together). I review the list, and all of it looks fine. However, I would note that the Handbook claims that "Later, Hellstrom seemingly destroyed several dark horses that attack Dr. Strange in Greenwich VIllage." A herd of horses from Nightmare's realm invaded Greenwich Village. However, a hellfire blast from Daimon Hellstrom quickly destroyed them in Last Defenders #3. I didn't realize that was Dreamstalker, but if the Handbook says so...
DREAMSTALKER
IH3 81
LASTDEF 3 <--- ADD
FF:TS 3
FF:TS 4

[NexusOfNightmares]

Now comes the hardest part - going back to the original purpose of this thread and deciphering the Handbook's placements of events. As I wrote way back, I already suspected that many of these events (though they are placed weird) don't conflict with any character's chronologies besides Nightmare since he's mostly a solo character (with the exception of one comic I'll describe down below). If there are any unforeseen changes, don't hesitate to let me know. This will only go to the events of Fantastic Four: True Story (since the rest of the events afterwards look fine to me). I will also not cover my Champions and Hulk (though I'm starting to change my mind on the latter) proposals here since they are covered above.

I can definitely say no to the Over the Edge #7 switch. See further below.

I believe the rest looks good.

The MCP correctly lists Nightmare's appearance in DS2 34-FB as the flashback of him training Cyrus Black. However, first, Nightmare is revealed to be the source of Cyrus's power to dream things to life. This takes place after Doctor Strange 182 but just slightly after the birth of the Defenders.
DS 181
DS 182
DEF 6-BTS <---- ADD
M/PRM 3
MHDS /2-BTS

Next, as an interesting change, the Handbook states "Nightmare brought the sorcerer Cyrus Black, whom he had empowered years ago, to his realm and taught him new ways of magic. With his current scheme against Strange taking form, Nightmare refused to help the Dweller-in-Darkness, who in return stole the dream image of Barbara Robb, turning her into his agent Dream Weaver."

2. His meeting with the Dweller in Darkness while he created Dream Weaver was while Nightmare was training Cyrus Black
There is not much time between the two stories. Actually none, but part of Cyrus Black's history in the issue is a flashback so it had to happen at some point in the past. It could be placed far earlier. Maybe shortly after Defenders #6 (1973), but then there i the story in Tales to Astonish #13/2 (1980), which actually predates Doctor Strange #34 chronologically (after Defenders #66 (1978)), so the flashback in #34 had to be more recent. I decided to place it right before Nightmare telling the Dweller to sod off.

With this, it has to be set before DS2 32 since that was when Dream Weaver was created.
DS2 13
DS2 34-FB <--- MOVE TO HERE
DS2 32
DS2 33
DS2 34-FB ---> MOVE FROM HERE
DS2 34

Edit: This was actually briefly discussed on the Chronology Project a few years ago: https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... are#p66820
One of two options was given

StrayLamb, concerning TTA2 13/2, you've put it before DS2 34 (10)-FB, Cyrus Black meeting Nightmare, fine.
For Nighthwak, you've put it after DEF 61-68, but it's in conflict with Nightmare having DS2 34 (10)-FB before DS2 32, because:

Cyrus Black has TTA2 13/2 before DS2 34 (10)-FB
Nightmare has DS2 34 (10)-FB before DS2 32-33
Dr. Strange has DS2 32-33 before A@ 8
Iron Man has A@ 8 before DEF 63
Nighthawk has DEF 61-68 and DEF 119-FB before TTA2 13/2

That can be corrected either by putting DS2 34 (10)-FB between DS2 33 and 34 for Nightmare, or by putting TTA2 13/2 between DS2 29 and DEF 61 for Nighthawk. Nighthawk can't have TTA2 13/2 after DEF 119-FB, because Strange has DEF 119-FB after DS2 34, Cyrus Black death. So TTA2 13/2 can be after DEF 68 for Nighthawk, first option, or before DEF 61, second option, I let you choose the one you prefer.

Unfortunately, the wrong one was placed. As such, the Nighthawk index will also have to be changed to reflect this.
NIGHTHAWK/KYLE RICHMOND
DS2 29
TTA2 13/2 <- MOVE TO HERE
DEF 61
DEF 62
DEF 63
DEF 64
DEF 65
DEF 67
DEF 68
DEF 119-FB
TTA2 13/2 -> MOVE FROM HERE
FF@ 14

In Incredible Hulk 298, Nightmare reveals that he's been messing with Hulk's dreams. More specifically, there's a flashback of him choosing which Defender to pick (before settling on Hulk). Not only that, Nightmare is implied to have been manipulating the dreams of the Hulk since Incredible Hulk #292. Hulk is shown dreaming in #292, 293, and 294.
IH2 298-FB <- ADD
IH2 292-BTS <- ADD
IH2 293-BTS <- ADD
IH2 294-BTS <- ADD
IH2 297
IH2 298
IH2 299

Nightmare's second encounter with Ghost Rider is put before the Hulk and D'Spayre story
AF 70
GR3 11 <--- MOVE TO HERE
IH2 360
M/FAN 51/2
XCAL 29-FB-BTS
XCAL 29
M/CP 79/4
GR3 11 ---> MOVE FROM HERE

Deathlok is set after his encounter with Doom, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider. This next section is too complicated to make individual moves for, so I'll just make it one giant list of how I would write it. M/CP 90 is the starting point since, while not mentioned in the Handbook, it was narrating the origin of the Fangu. Any changed comics will be bolded.
M/CP 90/4
DLOK2 9
DLOK2 10
DSSS 31/2
DSSS 32/2
DSSS 33/2
DSSS 38
DSSS 39
DSSS 40
SLEEP 12

The next change is that his battle with Amora is before MCP. This is noted to be an error in the Chronology Project's part:

Thor 451 and 452 are put before Marvel Comics Presents 117-122.
MCP #117-122 was published after Thor #451-452. The MCP story ran from the end of 1992 (117-118) to the beginning of 1993 (118-122). Thor #451-452 was September to October, 1992.

SOV 2-BTS
GR3 30
T 451/2
T 452/2 <--- MOVE TO HERE
M/CP 117-BTS
M/CP 118
M/CP 119
M/CP 120-BTS
M/CP 121
M/CP 122
T 451/2
T 452/2 ---> MOVE FROM HERE
MORB:LV 8

Now, as noted above, there is one area where the Handbook is wrong (at least that we know of). They placed Over the Edge 7 right after the events of Nightmare the comic. Initially, the writer defended this. However, it was later noted that it was incorrect:

I did not know about the mention in Sorcerer Supreme #79 until you mentioned it now. I just checked and it is there staring me right in the face.
I now also realize why Over the Edge #7 has to be after Sorcerer Supreme #79. Doctor Strange didn't use catastrophe magic and the outfit he wore in Over the Edge #7 until Sorcerer Supreme #80 (after he participated in the War of the Seven Spheres between the issues and behind the scenes).

Magik's battle with the Archenemy is put after the Marvel Knights story arc (though both our own master list and the Handbook entry states that they were around nearly the same time):
BP3 22
MGK2 1 ---> MOVE FROM HERE
M/K 8
M/K 9
MGK2 1 <--- MOVE TO HERE
IH3 77-BTS | cf. IH3 81

As I noted with the Doc Samson comics, the /2 stories are always meant to take place before the /1 parts. In particular, the entry says "Nightmare's first demons arriving on Earth-616 during this invasion were stopped by Samson's allies Jack Holyoak, Tina Punnett, and Living Totem (Whistle Pig), who had opposed Nightmare at some undisclosed point in the past.

While the Handbook never said exactly when the encounter took place, certain continuity clues can give a good estimation. In Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #1, Doc Samson first encountered the Whistle Pig and was able to restrain him. He was then taken to Samson's New York headquarters to be healed, eventually becoming an ally of the Doctor, such as in Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #2. The Whistle Pig along with the Doc and a few others had traveled to Vegas by the start of Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #4, which led to their battle with Nightmare's demons during his invasion. With all this in mind, this encounter should take place sometime after Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #1 but before Doc Samson (Vol. 2) #4.
DOCSAM2 5/2 <-- MOVE TO HERE
DOCSAM2 4
DOCSAM2 5
DOCSAM2 5/2 ---> MOVE FROM HERE
FF:TS 3-FB

And yes, this doesn't destroy continuity. It's such a niche story. Also, it never made that much sense to me that it was set after since it takes place in Samson's New York headquarters.

I've reviewed the rest of the list with my personal index, and it all looks fine. Let me know if there's anything that isn't right.

[Midnighter]

Fantastic Four: True Story had been moved along the Nightmare chronology to match the Fantastic Four chronology, precisely because of Secret Invasion: https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... our#p58210
I do not remember now why FF:TS was placed before Secret Invasion for the Fantastic Four, but adjusting the Nightmare chronology was certainly easier than the other way around.

[NexusOfNightmares]

Understood. Said proposed change has now been removed.