Wolverine Vol2 7

[JephYork]

Shadowcat and Phoenix are pulled back in time in #1. They return in #3, to find Wolverine waiting for them in England. I think that's the extent of his involvement.

Wait a minute, though. I thought we talked about this eons ago: Excalibur believes that Wolverine and the X-Men were dead during this period -- they didn't find out otherwise until X-Tinction Agenda. Did this never get moved?

-Jeph!

[Michael]

The problem is that in Excalibur 22, Rachel alludes to the events of True Friends- she recalls that when she first met the Shadow King in her timeline, he told her that he'd been waiting for this moment before her parents were born, and that she didn't know what he meant THEN. This implies that the events of True Friends had already happened, and she now understood why the Shadow King was interested in her before she was born.
The Wolverine problem is a big one. The weird thing is that Rachel saw Maddie in Inferno but never considered that if Maddie survived, some of the other X-Men might have survived. The simplest explanation is that since Merlin and Roma didn't want Excalibur to split up, one of them tampered with Rachel's and Kitty's minds to keep them from realizing that the X-Men were alive in case Kurt,Kitty or Rachel wanted to go back to the X-Men.

[michel]

X:TF 3 one night, Wolverine meets Rachel and Kitty in Scotland in a party for the opening of the new Scots Parliament

UX@ 13/2 shows Jubilee as she follows the X-Gals in Australia through Gateway's doorway just after UX 244. Wolverine appears twice, the same evening UX 244 ends and the day after

PWJ 6-7 Wolverine finds a poacher dealing with rare animals skins in Madripoor, then follows the lead in Congo where he meets the Punisher. Wolverine states "things are quiet tonight" in Madripoor, so it shouldn't be placed during W2 4-8 and the beginning of the gang war between Coy and Tyger.

So I would put W2 4-10 in between PWJ 7 and W2 11

[Somebody]

The problem is that in Excalibur 22, Rachel alludes to the events of True Friends- she recalls that when she first met the Shadow King in her timeline, he told her that he'd been waiting for this moment before her parents were born, and that she didn't know what he meant THEN. This implies that the events of True Friends had already happened, and she now understood why the Shadow King was interested in her before she was born.
The Wolverine problem is a big one. The weird thing is that Rachel saw Maddie in Inferno but never considered that if Maddie survived, some of the other X-Men might have survived. The simplest explanation is that since Merlin and Roma didn't want Excalibur to split up, one of them tampered with Rachel's and Kitty's minds to keep them from realizing that the X-Men were alive in case Kurt,Kitty or Rachel wanted to go back to the X-Men.

As Russ once put it:

But one could just as easily claim that the references to True Friends in Excalibur are the mistakes. Or that they're referring to some other events. In fact, don't they *have* to refer to other events, if characteres in True Friends know that Wolverine is alive?

And Jeph! put it:

Or, XCAL #42 is where they find out, and TF #1-3 occur afterwards.

I know what you're going to say -- there's a line in the CTC (XCAL #21-22 or so) that indicates that the TF series occurs before that point -- but that line is, honestly, so vague it could mean any number of things.

All Rachel says is "I didn't know what the Shadow King meant, then." And all that means is, now she knows what he meant. It doesn't mean, she knows *because she travelled back in time* -- she could have found out through any number of other means, including a later encounter with the Shadow King.

To me, the story point that Kitty and Rachel don't bat an eye when they return from their time trip and see Logan, is a bigger placement clue than a vague line about Rachel knowing what the Shadow King meant.

[...]

I think you're overlooking the vaguenes of the Shadow King line, though. I've already addressed this earlier in the thread -- all Rachel says is, "I didn't know what he meant, then." And all that implies is, by XCAL #22, she DID know.

It doesn't *automatically* follow that she knows *because she had travelled in time*. She could have learned what he was talking about in a variety of other ways, including (1) a later encounter with the Shadow King where he explained her upcoming time trip, (2) seeing her upcoming time trip in Logan's memories. Rachel's line is INFERENCE -- not PROOF.

That said -- there IS a footnote in XCAL #22, directing us to the upcoming Excalibur Bookshelf Specials #3-4, in which the "True Friends" story was to be originally published. Here's how my logic goes:

1) A footnote indicates that XCAL SPECIAL #3-4 occur before XCAL #22.
2) Kitty and Rachel's reaction to Logan's presence in TF #3 indicates that it occurs after XCAL #41.

Now ... in order for us to use the footnote as placement evidence, we need to demonstrate that TF #1-3 contain *exactly the same story* that would have appeared in XCAL SPECIAL #3-4. No alterations, no edits, no updates.

Can we do that?

Well, there was that long debate a while back where it was determined that the art was showing Logan with bone claws, a plot point introduced well after the timeframe of XCAL #22. So at this point, it's been decided that at least one change was made to the story. [This refers to a debate in Archive 57]

Granted, this change was to the art, not the story, but if at least one change was made, it throws into question the authenticity of the rest of the series. DOES it contain the exact same story it would have, had it been published in 1990?

If you can prove that it does, I'd be willing to weigh the footnote evidence (NOT Rachel's line -- just the footnote) a little stronger. But at this point, I'm inclined to weigh *actual evidence from TF #3* more strongly than a footnote referencing a book that wasn't published in its original form.

And Paul O'Brien points out that, awkward as it is, there's another reading of the line:

We also need to consider the dialogue to which the footnote related. Rachel is relating, in flashback, an encounter with the Shadow King in her own timeline. The Shadow King describes this as "a moment I've been eagerly anticipating since before even your parents were born". Rachel's narrative says "I didn't understand what he meant, then." This line is footnoted with "That story can be found in EXCALIBUR SPECIAL EDITION #'s 3 & 4, on sale this spring and summer."

So EXCALIBUR SPECIAL EDITION #3-4 are referred to NOT because Rachel is recounting events from those issues, but because they contain the events which lead Amahl Farouk to say that he's been waiting to face Rachel. Of course, Rachel's line "I didn't understand what he meant, then" strongly implies that she NOW knows what he's referring to, in which case TRUE FRIENDS has happened. But then again, she might be mistaken, or she might still not know (though it would be an awkward use of language).

The "they know Wolverine's alive" seems like stronger evidence than a "maybe" line in Exc22.

X:TF 3 one night, Wolverine meets Rachel and Kitty in Scotland in a party for the opening of the new Scots Parliament

So NOT "England" then...

[Michael]

But we still have the problem of why Rachel met Maddie and didn't consider that the other X-Men were alive. (And Rachel overhears Jean talking about Maddie in Excalibur 9, so she should realize that Maddie was who she met.) If we know that Roma and Merlin were already manipulating Excalibur (e.g. Brian's "blunder factor"), then why shouldn't we consider they might have also been tampering with Rachel's and Kitty's minds?

[Col_Fury]

I'm running out the door so I won't be able to check for myself until I get back, but isn't it a big deal when Excalibur finds out the X-Men aren't dead in Excalibur #41? Meaning, they're shown to be so shocked and surprised that there's no real way they could have known before then?

If that's the case, then it doesn't matter *why* Rachel didn't put two and two together when she met the Goblin Queen; she just didn't.

[Michael]

I've been reconsidering my position on this. On the one hand, I don't think that it's a reasonable interpretation of Rachel's line to say that she doesn't think she now knows what the Shadow King meant.
However, this is Rachel. It's canon that she's an idiot in the sense that she often reacts based on emotion instead of logic and reason. It's entirely possible that she came to completely wrong conclusions about how Maddie was alive and what the Shadow King meant and believed them because they felt right (or as Jeph pointed out, Logan could have simply told her about X:TF at some point). And since Col. Fury is right about Excalibur 41,my objections to moving X:TF 3 are withdrawn.

[JephYork]

Cool. So, it should probably go between Excalibur #41-42 for Rachel and Kitty ... but where does it go for Wolverine?

-Jeph!

[Michael]

Well, the Knights of Pendragon series happens just before XCAL 42- it also happens before the Infinity Gauntlet. We might want to stick Wolverine's appearance sometime before the Infinity Gauntlet. I'm wondering if this goes before or after XCAL:P for Kitty and Rachel.
By the way, why is Cypher listed as appearing in XCAL:P? Merlin explains to Excalibur in XCAL 50 that everything they experienced in XCAL:P was an illusion, to prepare their minds for the events of XCAL 50. So Cypher didn't really appear.
Jeph, before we continue further, when are you placing XCAL 41? There was a dispute about the placement:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4444

[JephYork]

I thought he said that everything really happened, even though it made no sense when you stepped back and looked at it, because he was manipulating reality.

Looks like the MCP made a decision on Cable's appearance in Excalibur #41 -- he's there just prior to X-Force #1, he's tapping the X-Men's phone lines, and (some of) the monitor images are in error.

That said, Ex #41 occurs (for Cable) just after Wolverine v2 #43, so True Friends #3 should occur after that point as well.

I'm placing it between Wolverine: Bloody Choices and Wolverine v2 #45. Does that work?

-Jeph!

[Somebody]

I thought he said that everything really happened, even though it made no sense when you stepped back and looked at it, because he was manipulating reality.

Quite the opposite - he said "Yes, the 'Possession' incident was necessary to prepare your psyches for their recent merger. The event was pure fantasy - played out in the subconscious mind of Alistaire Stuart".

[JephYork]

Hmm. Guess I'm thinking of something else, then.

-Jeph!