Stan Lee-616 Appearances

[vanhornluke]

There are a number of Stan Lee appearances that aren't listed in his chronology. Most of these are no doubt because those issues haven't been analyzed yet (such as his appearances in Astonishing and Kid Colt). I wanted to ask about three other appearances, though, that might be more controversial:

1) In My Friend Irma #48 (Feb 1955), Irma meets Stan Lee and Dan DeCarlo. Should we take this as indication that Irma is 616? While I don't see that as being problematic, since other characters from that genre are 616 (like Pearl Dimly and Nellie the Nurse), Irma is a licensed character, and those tend to take a little bit more proof to establish them as 616, right?

2) In Homer the Happy Ghost #18 (Mar 1955), Homer and his friends express dissatisfaction with the comic based upon their exploits and travel to New York to complain to Stan Lee about his writing. This should be no more problematic than Dr. Doom showing up at the Marvel offices, but since Homer wasn't included in any of the handbooks about ghosts, demons, and the like, I wanted to be sure that Homer is really a 616 character.

3) This is the hardest one: Terry-Toons Comics #12 (Sep 1943). The writer has some trouble coming up with a new story and explains that he has to follow E. Claude Pennygrabber around so that he can report on his exploits, and he's tired of doing this. Pennygrabber and some other funny animal characters show up at the Timely offices and hijinks ensue. By the end Stan Lee appears (as an intern) and promises that the writer will have thought of something better by next month. Are the Timely funny animal characters 616? I wouldn't have thought so, but there are other talking animal characters that are 616 (like Howard the Duck, Top Dog, and Heathcliff), so this isn't necessarily impossible, but it would be really weird.

[Clive_Reston]

I would love to know which issues of Astonishing and Kid Colt (and other not-yet-analyzed series) Stan Lee is in!

I think the burden of proof is on Irma, Homer, E. Claude Pennygrabber, etc., to demonstrate that they operate in 616 rather than in some other space where there is, perhaps, also a Stan Lee and perhaps even a Marvel Comics. If they turn up in an issue of, say, Shuri or Avengers West Coast, I'll buy that they're 616. (Moon Knight, maybe not so much.)

The FAQ notes that the Heathcliff comics are non-canonical; how are Heathcliff or Top Dog 616? (There's that story with Peter Parker and an actor playing Spider-Man in Top Dog #10, but Spider-Man's appearing at the store "courtesy of Marvel Comics," which doesn't work directly with the 616 Spider-Man, per Amazing Spider-Man Annual #37! He's gotta be one of the ones who showed up in Spider-Verse, maybe even the version from the newspaper strip, since Romita's drawing him...)

[vanhornluke]

Stan appears in Astonishing #4 (Jun 1951), Suspense #29 (Apr 1953), and Kid Colt Outlaw #107 (Nov 1962).

As far as I know, neither Irma, Homer, or Pennygrabber have appeared in any clearly 616 stories (say, and issue of Avengers or something like that). Nor have they crossed over with clearly 616 characters or been referenced in the handbooks to my knowledge. The only evidence I am aware of for them being 616 is that Stan appears in some of their stories (and the fact that they're published by Marvel, which is weak evidence, but still evidence I suppose). I don't see anything that would prevent Irma or Homer from being 616, though. Pennygrabber would be a harder pill to swallow, but there are other strange 616 characters as well, so it's not impossible. I was just wondering, for this site, whether Stan's appearances would be enough to warrant their inclusion or not.

Regarding Top Dog and Heathcliff, Top Dog is clearly 616. He appeared in a 616 story with the X-Babies and other Star characters (Wally the Wizard, Royal Roy, and Planet Terry). Further, Planet Terry has appeared in a Drax story. The handbooks referenced that X-Babies story as 616, and also referenced one of the Wally characters as 616. Now, Top Dog crossed over with Heathcliff in an issue of Top Dog. Therefore, Heathcliff is also 616. MCP's FAQ just hasn't been updated to reflect this info (it erroneously lists several other 616 series as non-616, too).

[Clive_Reston]

A couple of tiny quibbles: the character I think you're thinking of in Kid Colt #107 is never identified by name, is standing in front of a drawing board, and doesn't look much like Stan--could it be Jack Keller?

That's Stan for sure in Suspense #29. But the relevant character in Astonishing #4 is also never identified by name, and his company publishes "Argh Comics," "Belvue Comics" and "Casket Comics," not titles associated with Marvel...

[vanhornluke]

Maybe there's wiggle-room, but that's how the appendix interprets things: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/leestanl.htm

[Russ Chappell]

I would love to know which issues of Astonishing and Kid Colt (and other not-yet-analyzed series) Stan Lee is in!

Stan appears in Astonishing #4 (Jun 1951), Suspense #29 (Apr 1953), and Kid Colt Outlaw #107 (Nov 1962).

Thanks! I'm adding TOS 29.

the character I think you're thinking of in Kid Colt #107 is never identified by name, is standing in front of a drawing board, and doesn't look much like Stan--could it be Jack Keller?

… the relevant character in Astonishing #4 is also never identified by name, and his company publishes "Argh Comics," "Belvue Comics" and "Casket Comics," not titles associated with Marvel...

Maybe there's wiggle-room, but that's how the appendix interprets things: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/leestanl.htm

I don't think that's good enough evidence.

[vanhornluke]

It's Suspense #29, not Tales of Suspense #29. And I'm glad we've talked about these other stories in Astonishing and such, but what about the original appearances I was actually asking about in My Friend Irma, Homer the Happy Ghost, and Terry-Toons?

[Russ Chappell]

It's Suspense #29, not Tales of Suspense #29.

Thanks for the clarification. Any thoughts on where the appearance should be placed in his chronology?

what about the original appearances I was actually asking about in My Friend Irma, Homer the Happy Ghost, and Terry-Toons?

Before I can answer that, how firm are you in your belief that it's Stan Lee? I only ask because you were pretty definitive in your original post that Stan appears in Astonishing and Kid Colt Outlaw, but when you were challenged on those, it appears that you were basing the claim at least partly on what another fan site says, rather than what's actually on the page.

So give us more information about what's actually on the page. How is Stan Lee identified?

When you say this:

I was just wondering, for this site, whether Stan's appearances would be enough to warrant their inclusion or not.

it appears you may have things backwards. If this is meant to be Stan Lee, we wouldn't use Stan's appearance here to bring the stories into the Project. We would first determine if the stories are canon, and then--if it's truly 616 Stan Lee--add the appearances to his chronology. My apologies, if I've taken your quote out of context, or misunstood your meaning.

[vanhornluke]

It's clearly Stan in those issues of My Friend Irma, Homer the Happy Ghost, and Terry-Toons. In their stories, Irma and Homer both decide to travel to New York and meet the creators of their comics. Stan is identified by name (as is Dan DeCarlo). In the Terry-Toons story, Stan is again identified by name, but this time it's early in his career and he's just an intern.

And I don't think you've misunderstood me. I said that I wasn't aware of anything clearly establishing Irma, Homer, or the Terry-Toons series as 616, other than the general default to 616 when something is published by Marvel. Since each of these series are a little funky, though (funny animals, licensed, or kiddie Casper rip-offs), I thought there might need to be a little more evidence before classifying them as 616. There is some extra evidence, namely that Stan Lee appears by name in each of their series, but I wasn't sure if that by itself was enough to show that they're 616.

[Col_Fury]

For what it's worth, My Friend Irma is on the MCP Timely / Atlas Checklist, but I'm sure that was added before we knew it was a licensed character. Was there any crossover between Irma and the other romance and/or humor books of the time?

My gut tells me that Homer and Terry-Toons are alternate worlds, and these would then be alternate Stans appearing. (Homer and Terry are both also on the Checklist, but as that page says, if a book is found to be non-canon it'll be taken off the list)

I've never read any of these, so take this with a grain of salt.

[vanhornluke]

As far as I know, Irma never met any other Marvel characters besides Stan Lee and Dan DeCarlo.

[Clive_Reston]

As far as the placement of Suspense #29 goes, I'd say it should be between SGTF 22 (in which Stan is in the armed forces during WWII) and SS3 -1 -FB (in which he's working at Atlas, and "Jolly Jack" is already working with him (in our world, at least, Kirby didn't work for Marvel between 1942 and 1956). On the other hand, the "Stan" in SS3 -1 -FB has a moustache, which the real-world Stan didn't at that point, as far as I know...

(If Suspense #29 goes into Stan's chronology, it should also be in Joan Lee's chronology! And maybe start a chronology for J.C. Lee!)

"Private Lee" appears in Invaders #16; if that's Stan, and why not, it should be before SGTF 22 (at least per Adolf Hitler's chronology...!).

MYSC 10/8 currently appears in Stan's chronology, but that's not Stan Lee, it's Stanley Dee of Crimely Publications. Totally different guy. Totally.

I'd also note that the non-flashback part of SS3 -1 takes place around the time of its publication, so considerably later (Stan has gray hair)--and a bunch of the other -1 issues published the same month also have Stan popping in at the beginning and/or end to introduce them, in the same way that he does in CODNESS 2/3!

That said: the first story in Tales to Astonish #20 involves the pipe-smoking, unnamed editor of Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense, and the first story in Tales of Suspense #33 involves the pipe-smoking, unnamed editor of Tales of Suspense! Lee and Ditko appear, and are named, in Amazing Adult Fantasy #12/3. On the other hand, Stan and Steve's appearance in the final story in ASM@ 1, for instance, has to be non-canonical--imagine Marvel's writers and artists actually making up a story about Spider-Man out of whole cloth... it's also worth noting that 616 Marvel didn't start publishing a Spider-Man comic book until shortly before he fought the Molten Man, per ASM@ 37/2.

While we're at it: Jack Kirby appears (by name, rather extensively) in Millie the Model #107!

[vanhornluke]

Kirby also appears in Patsy and Hedy #88

[vanhornluke]

I'm not sure if this counts as official confirmation or not, but Marvel Fact Files #240 was just released and it has an article on the 616 version of Stan Lee. It says that it was Stan in Astonishing #4 and Kid Colt Outlaw #107.

[Clive_Reston]

I haven't been able to track down a readable copy of My Friend Irma #48, but (in the course of researching a memorial piece) I *have* gotten to read My Friend Irma #41, March 1954, in which Irma goes to see "Stan and Dan," "the men who write and draw 'My Friend Irma'"! According to comics.org, she also meets them in #48; anyone have any idea if it's the same story or not?